Two Shades of Green: Delta Green's Schism

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Strap in operatives. This is go bag your all access pass to modern day RPGs loaded with bullets, backstories and a whole lot of bad decisions. And here are your mission leaders, Sean and Harrigan. [00:00:21] Speaker B: We did not record last week, not that anybody would know because we're still in stealth mode. [00:00:28] Speaker A: We are, we are. We have a vast archive of unreleased Season 2 material as of this recording. And there's. Yeah, the one with. Of us with better plumage has that on his plate to. To get that done. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Where are you in the COVID action world currently? [00:00:52] Speaker A: Delta Greenie, not doing much else since this season is about Delta Green. I think I told you either in a recent episode or offline that not only am I running a game, but I've just joined a Delta Green game as well. Play by post. So we've got characters created, we've got the opening posts done. It's been some interesting stuff actually. But just to finish the original, the first question, like I haven't, haven't read, seen, had not despised stuff outside of Delta Green at the moment. [00:01:24] Speaker B: What about COVID ops? [00:01:27] Speaker A: I'm still running covert ops for sure. You know what, you know what? Let's, let's, let's do that first. I guess other than my play by post games, because I've got, I've got a, you know, got some espionage going on there. Cox. I'm, I'm hoping. Will, let's put it this way. I think I'm, I've hinted before at the fact that I don't love a system now that I put it through its paces. There's some really specific things but. And I think in season three or beyond, when we return to the core covert action stuff, maybe we can cover a couple of smaller games in a single episode and I can list out sort of the pros and cons. It certainly looks like it will play well. There's parts of it that it's a pretty simple percentile system, but there's some things that just really great on me. And it's one of those games where it's not super clear am I making an attribute check or a skill check or this check or that check. And the way they define those numbers at the front is actually just like BRP where it's like generally if you're rolling against a skill may not be a very big number, but if you roll against an attribute times five, it's almost always a pretty decent number. This game has that same problem where why wouldn't you try to roll against the attribute? Because it's A higher number kind of thing. But having said that, I think I mentioned before it said in Prague, and we've moved the game along. It's pretty cool. They've killed an opposing agent in the back alley of a restaurant and are trying to make a getaway in their van. The van is supposed to be like. It's like, painted up like a water company, a local water company. It's their getaway vehicle. But they're now caught in traffic on a Friday night, and the opposing forces are chasing them on foot. So I'm anticipating a heat, like, shootout in the middle of the street in a crowded, like, Friday, Friday night in downtown Prague kind of way. So I'm actually pretty stoked about that. Should be cool. It may end up being the final scene of the game, or we may not go much further because I think all of us are dragging dragon feet a little bit on that game. But that's the green side of things. Maybe we'll talk about this in a. In a later episode. But it's that whole, like, when people. Other players have not played it, when the GM hasn't run it before. There's some record scratch moments around, like, the program doesn't call you on your cell phone and say, I've got a. I've got a mission for you. Hi, it's Delta Green. I've got a mission for you. And I'm gonna go, you know, on your highly traceable cell phone, and I'm just gonna give you the mission briefing right here over the. Over the air. That doesn't happen in my. In my view of Delta Green. So with some of that going on. But having said that, I love my character. It's got like, like, dark backstory where got involved. She had, like, an incident with the program, with a cult. Right. So she had her encounter with the unnatural, and that's how she got inducted in. And it was while she was chasing a lead on this cult that she gave her let her sister look after her daughter, and they were both killed in a car accident. While, you know, that came from the GM saying, hey, you're playing. You're playing experienced agents. You are damaged veterans. So choose one of the four options to be damaged. And the one I chose eliminated a bond. So I crossed my daughter off my sheet. And then I'm like, oh, my God, what happened? So I really kind of like it. So this woman's like. She's an FBI hostage negotiator. So she's in her 40s, and she's just got this, like, her husband left her because of this. It's good. It's going to be good. I'm looking forward to it. What about you? What are you doing in the espionage space? I know you're running Delta Green. [00:04:46] Speaker B: I am running Delta Green. Impossible Landscapes. It's going well. We kind of hit a lull, I think, in the last couple sessions, but it seems to be picking back up as they investigate a particular contact of theirs in the game. So. Good, Good, good, good. I want to run a game for patrons. I don't know which one. Maybe Delta Green. But I know that some patrons aren't all Delta Green fans, but I don't know. We'll see. I haven't chosen or put a ton of thought into that. It's been lingering in the back of my mind for a little while. [00:05:21] Speaker A: I bet. I bet you in terms of the fans and what they want you to run for them, you've probably got a small but rabid group that's like, Delta 3. Yes, please, for sure. And then a bunch of others who are like, can we just do straight spy stuff? [00:05:36] Speaker B: Right? Yes. [00:05:38] Speaker A: They want you to run Cold Shadows for them, Sean. Sorry, too soon. [00:05:44] Speaker B: If only I could. If only I could. [00:05:47] Speaker A: Too soon. And that was years ago. [00:05:49] Speaker B: I do have that Cold War scenario. I could potentially break that out and. And put it in a system and make some pre gens and say, I want to run this to get your guys's feedback and. And yeah, man, make that happen, but we'll see. I don't know. [00:06:04] Speaker A: Drop that into Agent Provocateur, dude. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's an option for sure. Or, you know, do I just go straight Spycraft one zero and they're all just. And run it for what it's worth and just either do Mission Impossible Team or you're just a group of ops operators. And it could be two. It could be two scenes or three scenes. Like nothing too crazy. Here's the deal. And then make it even more on the tactical side of things. My fear with some of these games is, as you may know, whenever you pose like a heist that, you know, they. They have to like, here's the thing, go and go do that. Right. And then it's like two hours of planning how to do the thing. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Yes. You're describing the. The raison d' of the Forge in the Dark game. It Blaze in the Dark. [00:07:05] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:05] Speaker A: Let's skip the planning and cut to the action and then have flashbacks to cover and spend some. A little bit of metacurrency to. To flesh out our preparation without actually preparing for. And remember, there's that. There's that blade spy game that we uncovered. We haven't talked about it yet. [00:07:22] Speaker B: That is true. [00:07:23] Speaker A: That may be something you want to look at too. Blades games generally are not for me mechanically, but that might be cool. [00:07:30] Speaker B: Yes. So there's that option. But my fear is I don't want too much of the. Like, I just want. Okay, you know, maybe it's terrace on a plane. You just have to go and do two elements going on at the same time. There's this and then that. [00:07:44] Speaker A: So the same way that you pull, you can pull gumshoes approach to clue finding. In other words, you A, you get the ones you need and B, you can spend metacurrency or make rolls to get additional stuff that makes it easier or faster or whatever. You can pull that out of gumshoe and use it anywhere. The exact same thing is true for the flashback type thing from Blades in the Dark where you could use Asian provocateur or Chinese spies or whatever and just start in the middle of the action and allow people to flash back and say, what's your approach to the guard? And if you want to, you can spend a piece of metacurrency and say, actually I bribed that guard before. And you have the brief vignette of you guys meeting in the cafe and money changing hands and whatnot. It doesn't have to be blades. Blades has mechanized all that. But there's ways to use those mechanics. So you're not. Because I'm with you, I don't want, especially regarding the big planning session, you don't want that to be the first thing you're doing, like out of the gate. You know what? It gets back to something we talked about last season. It's why you want the teaser. The teaser should be like, let's go, let's go. Let's get some action going, get the blood pumping and then maybe then you get into the. Learn about the mission, do the plotting and the planning and all that stuff. Agree. Disagree. [00:09:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I agree. [00:09:03] Speaker A: There you go. So your, your thoughts are forming around what you're going to run basically for patrons. [00:09:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't know if it'll be a single one shot or if it'll be, you know, a two session part one, part two piece. If I do one session and it's four players, it's gotta be pretty condensed. I could do Des Nepe. Yeah. Glass hounds in a glass house. The shotgun scenario I ran for BSERS at BSERcon and as well as he ran another group through that too, but it wasn't for bs. [00:09:36] Speaker A: I haven't played that yet. [00:09:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it's good. [00:09:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I like to play it. [00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah, you could do it. [00:09:44] Speaker A: Dude, think about this, your four hour session. You're talking about condensing things. You and I have run how many [00:09:49] Speaker B: one shots for the Thursday ignite group? You weren't there. [00:09:51] Speaker A: I know. And I wasn't there. I know, but how many, how many one shots have we run? And those are like two and a half hours. I think most of them come out to. You can do it. You can get, you can get good content in a game even with three or four players in the short. A short span. It's going to be. Just going to be snappy. Yes, indeed. [00:10:12] Speaker B: But other than movies, books, not so much. I don't think I'm trying to reach back into my brain to see if I've tripped up across anything that I've watched. You even movie wise. [00:10:28] Speaker A: I got a bunch on my, on my watch list and on my want to read list or listen list and I just haven't gotten to a lot of stuff lately. I think you're the same. Yeah. [00:10:37] Speaker B: Yes. [00:10:40] Speaker A: You're very effusive and I thought I [00:10:42] Speaker B: watched something and I didn't make a list of what it was. [00:10:44] Speaker A: Oh, you're trying to remember it. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Okay. Yes. Crap. I don't. Maybe I didn't. Maybe I want to. And it's on my list. [00:10:52] Speaker A: Do you want to complain some more about the American or anything like that or. No. No, no. Okay, good. [00:10:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we're good. I think I'm good. Did you have anything like books, movies, tv, media, whatever? [00:11:05] Speaker A: No, as I, as I referenced earlier, it's just not, it's not in my orbit right now. Work is bananas and will be bananas for a while. I think it is for you too at the moment. So that's eating up a lot of time. In fact, the things that I'd like to do with my spare time. I would love to also run a game for patrons, but I can tell it ain't in the cards right now. Maybe I can. You know, maybe it's the summer, we move through the summer into the fall or something like that. Kind of depends on whether my, my, my boss cools or jets a little bit. What we're trying to do at work. And I don't know, I mean I also. Really, really. And I might do it later today if I have the time. I want to return to my Blog and get, get the Hearth back off the ground. It's been months sitting and I, I've got a bunch of ideas I want to cover on the Hearth and that'll be. That'll take up some time as well. Yeah. Oh, you know what? I did want to mention, like, I think that James Bond PC game, I think it either came out or it's about to. [00:11:57] Speaker B: You mentioned it previously. [00:11:59] Speaker A: We've talked about it a couple times and it looked pretty cool and had that trailer that the, you know, some of the inter. Interwebs were like, this looks like the movie. Is this the movie? And it, you know, and when I looked at the trailer, I'm like, this is clearly a video game trailer, guys. What are you, what are you talking about? But it looks pretty, it looks pretty well produced and all that kind of stuff. And you know, there's a history of good James Bond games right from Goldeneye up through. There's one I can never remember the name of. There's a Pierce Brosnan era piece, PS2, PS3 maybe. I think it's a PS2 game and man, it was. I love that game. I remember the name of it. But hey, no, that's all I got for espionage stuff. Sean, glad you asked. Thanks, buddy. [00:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah, you're welcome. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Is that it for the show? Are we done? [00:12:43] Speaker B: I don't. Not yet. Okay, we have more to cover. Let's get into sit rep. [00:12:51] Speaker A: Give me [00:12:51] Speaker B: the sit rep couple this week. That may come in a bit dated by the time you hear this, but nonetheless, the first one I wanted to bring up was Dennis Detwiller had posted and then a couple of people had brought it up on Reddit. So they have kind of a. They use a platform that's different than Patreon, but it is a similar kind of pay to subscribe and you get some updates on the projects that they're working. And so by the time this is out, I don't think any of them will probably drop. But just as a high level overview but also encourage you to go over and subscribe. Like Caleb Stokes has a podcast that he does actual plays on some of the scenarios that I think that he's working on and has has ideas about and has put that out there as kind of an exclusive. Dennis puts out updates as well on what he's working on. So recently Operational History, which is a book that they are working on, apparently is done in copy edited and will be entering layout shortly. So by the time this drops, layout may be done. I don't know. Millennium, which is another book is through layout in the last edits, which is great. I hope I'm not divulging any corporate secrets through this. I don't think so. But it also gives you a little teaser to maybe go over there and contribute to them as they go through the creation process. Shotgun Scenarios is under illustration. Let's see along with operational history, their ank he's ankles deep in Falling Towers, which is a campaign book that concerns the destruction of the New York occult conspiracy known as the Fate. I'm teasing these in an effort to be like and having some people be. [00:14:35] Speaker A: Well, I, I got, I got a hook in my mouth. I'm wearing lights on. [00:14:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Arrogance. [00:14:39] Speaker A: Like I'm on the line. But I will ask what's the Shotgun Scenarios book? Are they taking the Fairfield project stuff and putting it in a hardcover? [00:14:47] Speaker B: I don't know if, I don't know. I don't know if it's selected ones I would imagine. I can't imagine they're going to put [00:14:54] Speaker A: all like the winners of many years, right? [00:14:56] Speaker B: Yes. So maybe the top five of each. I don't know. [00:14:59] Speaker A: Or is it like various scenarios that started the shotgun scenarios and turned into full blooded operas where they added to them. Maybe they're going to do 10 to 20 page versions of some of the key ones. Right. Who knows? Sean is. For those not watching, Sean is making, I don't know, tune in. [00:15:18] Speaker B: It's going to be great, whatever it is, I'm sure. Plus it could be just shotgun scenarios that the, the company is putting together themselves. Right. [00:15:26] Speaker A: Would also be interesting. [00:15:27] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Or asking maybe some freelancers or some of the contributors to the Shotgun scenarios to come up with certain ones for publication. I don't know the rights behind the shotgun scenarios and what that looks like. [00:15:40] Speaker A: You know what they should do. Maybe, maybe this. Maybe I'm about to describe what either what they're doing or what they've already done in the osr. It's pretty common these days for people to get guest authors when you put out a product you reach out to like the luminaries in the community and you get them to all do a little adventure. Delta Green could easily do that. Reach out to a few people across the, across the industry and say hey look, this little shotgun. And for a reminder for those who don't know Delta Green very well, shotguns are the. Is it 1500 words? Something like that. They're, they're short scenarios. They're meant to be, you know, an evening's play maybe could be more but they're meant to be. Pick it up, scan it, get going. Seeds for wider adventures and that sort of thing. So they could easily get some. Some hatchatrot authors on that stuff. [00:16:24] Speaker B: Compilation, Right, exactly. The other things that he has included, like a couple of scenarios for Deep State, the March Technologies source book that. That's going to be. He's also addressing some writing for Impossible Landscapes, like, apparently left a lot on the cutting room floor. So readdressing that and then being able to run it with, like a tarot deck as well. Yeah, that's gonna be a whole. Whole thing too. Because if you're not familiar, Impossible Landscapes, I think is bigger than the Handler's Guide. [00:17:05] Speaker A: Oh, it totally is. [00:17:06] Speaker B: Page count. Yeah. So it's a briefy book already? Already, yes. [00:17:11] Speaker A: Let alone half of it being left in the cutting room floor or whatever. [00:17:15] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes, yes. [00:17:17] Speaker A: It's already a challenge to run, but wow, what a. What a magnum opus kind of product that is. That's crazy. [00:17:22] Speaker B: Yeah. So there's some of the things that Dennis has got going on I wanted to share with everybody since we're covering Delta Green this season. The other one is much more for Covert Action, people that are into other specific genre. Kralog. Yeah, go ahead. [00:17:40] Speaker A: So for the rest of people, like, wake up, wake up, everybody. Delta Green's boring. You listen to Sean right now. [00:17:46] Speaker B: Yes. What? Huh? Krullog had posted the Atlas Obscura, and then as part of the Atlas Obscura, he had featured 11 places to explore spycraft. So there's like, the bridge in Berlin, which, dude, the Spycraft Museum is probably the biggest one that everybody is most familiar with, if they've even looked into the genre. But, like, places in Berlin, one of them is a bridge. Dude, I had to. I had to do a double take on that. [00:18:20] Speaker A: Like, have I been there? [00:18:21] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. Because I ever tell you about when I went to Roger Waters at the wall in Potsdam. In Potsdamer Platz, down by the wall? [00:18:31] Speaker A: You have. I thought what you're about to say is. Did I ever tell you about the time when I was just an artillery grunt in Germany and the CIA recruited me? No. That's what I thought you were going to say. [00:18:40] Speaker B: No. [00:18:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:18:41] Speaker B: I can't respect that. I can't talk about that. Okay, you can't talk about that. But anyways, we were. We were down there for a concert, big concert, and it was down by the wall, and it was 1990, I think 91 was when the concert was. But we had to go and get a Car. Like, we went down there on train. We parked our car a distance away. So we're like, oh, go get the car. We found a spot to park the car and we went across the bridge. And at the end of the bridge was a Russian checkpoint with the Russian flag and soldiers. And we were like, oh, snap. And we just did pull the U turn on the bridge. And I was like, I wonder if it's the same bridge that's featured in one of the Atlas Obscura's locations. Yeah. And I thought it could be the one. We took a right and we should have went left, so. And I don't even know it because it is down near that area and it's one of the bridges where. So like, where are you going with this, Sean? In Atlas Obscura, one of the locations is this bridge in Berlin that was used to exchange spies and things of that nature. [00:19:48] Speaker A: Right. Halfway point. [00:19:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And I probably was there and didn't even know it. [00:19:53] Speaker A: There you go. [00:19:54] Speaker B: So anyways, it's pretty good. Check it out. We'll have a link in the show notes. But that's all we had for SITREP this week. Unless you add something. [00:20:01] Speaker A: No, but I just wanted to. Additional thanks to Acrylic for posting that in the Discord. It's just neat. It's just a bunch of real world by locations and the history that goes with them. So it's pretty. It's pretty sweet. [00:20:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:11] Speaker A: I had nothing additional from me this week, Sean. [00:20:15] Speaker B: All right, let's get into mission brief. [00:20:17] Speaker A: Please have a seat. Let's get on with the mission brief. [00:20:22] Speaker B: Oh, it's going to be a good one this week. It's going to be good. It's going to be good. So here I want to set this up because Harrigan and I often get our wires crossed for a variety of reasons. So I had factions. Let's talk about factions. And then in the description, it was very much about, like the differences between the outlaws and the program, which is they are factions. And it's things that are important in the Delta Green space and how you set your campaign up. But there are tons of other factions that come into play, either as partnerships to the program or outlaws or antagonists to those efforts. And so I started going one direction and Harrigan went down the rabbit hole of the other direction. But the nice thing is you get to benefit from our mix of things, from our idiocy. [00:21:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I think what you've done, now that I'm looking at the, at the framework here, the, you know, the Notes, you're. You are removing the need to cover the lore later, I think, because I think you're going to do the lore today. [00:21:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we're going to touch on the lore, but very high level overview, because even when I approached it. So we're going to. So we're going to kind of set this up properly. I'm going to talk to you a little bit about, mentioned the. The programmed outlaws, the cowboys, what that means and their history. Yeah, and the history and where they fall in the. The grand scheme of things. If you have not read the Handler's Guide or are familiar with Delta Green, it's got a quite extensive amount of timeline and everything that's happened and the different moving parts of it. Harrigan's going to go into some of the faction play and I fully anticipate him chiming in as I do mine, and vice versa. So you're going to get the full monty this week, hopefully. So buckle up. Buckle up. Yes, yes, there is lore, but I wanted to not get into really into the deep weeds and start calling out character names and things of that nature. But if you talk about the program, then you have to have knowledge of majestic, and if you don't have knowledge of Majestic, like who are they and where do they come into play? And so there is a bit of history before you set this thing in the modern era, quote, unquote, modern era, which I would consider anything from like 1970 to current date. Would you. Would you. Would that be safe, Harrigan? [00:22:54] Speaker A: I'd probably categorize it differently, break it up differently. [00:22:57] Speaker B: Maybe the 80s 90s into the modern era. [00:23:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, 2001 today is really a set era in the game. 94 to 2001. 70 to 94. And then a whole bunch of stuff before that. [00:23:13] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:14] Speaker B: It also depends on whether you played the older version. Like if you. The older version's all set in the 90s, I believe. Right. [00:23:24] Speaker A: That's homie. Don't play that, Sean. I'm not going back and reading that stuff. I'm going for the modern game. [00:23:29] Speaker B: Okay, whatever. Yeah, yeah. Anyways, let me kick it off. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah, get us lunch, buddy. [00:23:34] Speaker B: All right, so it starts with the 1928 Treasury Department's raid on Ensemet. Right. Something's going on there. They send the Treasury Department in there because that's the precursor to the FBI and all that good stuff. So they go in there, that's where it starts to begin as they unwrap. And if you listen to what is the actual book [00:23:59] Speaker A: the story is called A Shadow Over Shadow Over Ends. [00:24:03] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:24:03] Speaker A: And it's a. It's, you know, depending on what collection you're reading, it's a. It's a. It's a substantial story. I think it's 80 or 100 pages, something like that. [00:24:10] Speaker B: There you go. [00:24:11] Speaker A: But it's not a full book, right? [00:24:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Most of Lovecraft stuff is like that. Maybe people don't know that he wrote short stories for the most part, and novellas and that sort of thing. [00:24:21] Speaker B: Forward to 1929. P4 is the precursor to Delta Green, and P4 is parapsychology, paranormal and psychic phenomena that is part of the Office of Naval Intelligence. The Office of Naval Intelligence is the precursor to what will be the oss, which is the precursor to the CIA. So just follow along, kids. We'll get there eventually. [00:24:51] Speaker A: It's actually for people. For people sort of bust in, but for people who, like that kind of, like, wired into real history in your settings and whatnot. And not only wired into the real world, but also this, like. I don't know, a lot of these are real groups that they're talking about. [00:25:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an alternate reality. [00:25:10] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Alternate history, whatever. [00:25:12] Speaker B: Alternate history, yes. [00:25:13] Speaker A: Keep going. [00:25:14] Speaker B: All right. And then eventually, as they. The P4 is set up because of the things that had taken place at ends myth, they started investigating those details and what have you in 1942. Delta Green is a security clearance that is implemented within the newly formed oss. So it doesn't actually start as a group. Starts out as a security clearance. [00:25:42] Speaker A: I love that. I've read that too. [00:25:44] Speaker B: And then you become. And then they're just referred to as Delta Green. Right. [00:25:49] Speaker A: So may I bust in with one? What I think is a pretty cool detail. [00:25:52] Speaker B: Sure. [00:25:53] Speaker A: There is the, you know, the Treasury Department, the oni, the Naval Intelligence Office that is involved in the Innsmouth raid. And they end up with like a couple hundred, like, captives, and they have to put them in, like, in the prison system, and they hide them away. Like, there's a whole conspiracy kind of starting right then and there. Like, we have to. We have to hide these fish people so that no one. No one else finds out about them. Right. And the. There's another group that you. I don't think you touched on it. There's a group called the Black Chamber, which came out of, like. I think they came out of the first World War or something like that. Not remember the history exactly. But bottom line is they. When the presidents change and it went from oh, who Was the president? 28. I'm forgetting, it's not Hoover yet. Hoover takes over the next year. I'll look it up while you're doing the rest of his stuff. In any case, the President gets briefed and he's like, wow, that's kind of crazy. And then when Hoover comes in and they've done a lot more work around this innsmouth thing and this cult of Dagon, or Dagon, however you want to say that, he's basically like, you know, what, what are you. Are you crazy? What are you talking about? And he disbands the Black Chamber, like, like blows it up. And P4, the group that you mentioned, kind of, they inherit the people who were doing the work on that first raid, basically. So just a little cool little detail, because the part that flows through is from there forward, the people who work on this stuff inside the government decide the President doesn't need to know about this because the President keeps changing. He hasn't got the history of everything. That's so like a super cool steel thread that starts way back in 1929 when they tell. When they tell Hoover and he blows it up. And you can stretch that all the way to today kind of thing. Like this is why the President isn't in on the ground floor. Pretty neat. Anyway, you were going to talk about probably the 40s or something like that. [00:27:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Going into 1940. So I mentioned 42 and then 47. Truman organizes Majestic Dash 12. Majestic 12. [00:27:54] Speaker A: I think it's Calvin Coolidge who's the president. Keep going. [00:27:57] Speaker B: Oh, from, from the 20s. [00:27:58] Speaker A: Yeah, from 28. Yep. [00:28:00] Speaker B: So Truman organizes Majestic 12, which is a special studies project. There's 12 leading figures from the military, scientific and intel communities that make this project up. And they answer directly to the President. So Contrary to the 20s with Hoover, this one report to me on all this stuff. And it was all around UFO phenomena, specifically starting with Roswell. Yeah. So. And then the scope expanded further into extraterrestrial incursions or to prevent extraterrestrial incursions throughout the the US territory and cover up those subsequent incidents to prevent widespread panic, which is also the precursor. Even though they did it with the raid on Endsmouth originally, it continues like, hey, go and check these out, but keep it on the down low and cover those up. We don't want can't get this getting out to the public. People go crazy. [00:29:02] Speaker A: Yep. And this is also. Look, look, think about it. This is the 50s now you're talking about, and this is like red scare time. Yes, so it's that, you know, the, the just the way that Delta Green looks at the government structures and whatnot. This is just plugging into that whole thing that was going on as opposed to the 20s and the 30s. [00:29:19] Speaker B: All right, so that's, you know, we're still talking now, people. Delta green. And then 19, November 1969. Right. And during Vietnam War, Operation Obsidian is an operation where the South Vietnamese and the US contingent of the US Marines go into Cambodia, and that's about 300 marines, and they destroy a temple devoted to summoning a great old 1. And 300 members the military had perished in that operation and released the horror into the world. [00:29:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it went badly. [00:29:56] Speaker B: It went bad. Yeah, it went south, which was not great. On top of everything else that was going on in the area at the time and even to come, actually. So we fast forward to July, only a few months later, Delta Green clearance is officially deactivated because the 19. I'm sorry, I'm skipped over one in May, from November to the following May, the US and South Vietnamese officially invade Cambodia. They meet stiff resistance and the Joint Chiefs blame this now official operation into Cambodia. Okay, this is the second one not to be confused with the other one that went rogue. And because that also didn't go well, they blamed the prior Delta green operation from 1969 as basically leaking intel. And that's why it went south. So the Marine colonel that headed up the previous one, they said he shouldn't have done it. And because of that, intel was released. And when they did it in July, when or in May, sorry, it went nutty and south, clear as mud. Harrigan. [00:31:10] Speaker A: Yep. I mean, bottom line is from the, you know, there's some pre Delta Green stuff in the 20s and 30s. The OSS formalizes Delta Green in the 40s during the Second World War. And it continues as a government agency until 69, when funding is cut, disbanded. All because of the one big incident. I've actually never read that Gumshoe Powered the Fall of Delta Green adventure that details this entire thing in this, in Vietnam. I kind of love Vietnam as a setting for this stuff, so I probably should get it and read it at some point. But I guess what I'm, what I'm getting at is I don't know the scale of the horror they unleashed, but I remember the artwork. It's like some, you know, it's hundreds of feet tall, it's big, the thing that gets unleashed. So it's a mess. It's a big cover up and a big mess. [00:31:59] Speaker B: So that was May, the operation into Cambodia that went south. And because it went south, and then there was My Lai and the Tet offensive and all that stuff. In July of 1970, they're like, no more DG clearance. Delta Green clearance officially deactivated. Green triangle stripped from personnel files, and the agency is officially disbanded. So it's done. Which is important because we talk about, like, Delta Green and all these factions and the timeline and era and what's official and what's not official. And it's done. [00:32:30] Speaker A: Finished. [00:32:31] Speaker B: July 1970. Delta Green ceases to officially exist. [00:32:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, the counterpoint is like. And we'll talk about this. The modern program that exists today from 2001 in the game world is still very clandestine. And it's like a shadow organization in 1970. What Sean's talking about is that, like, they are. They're all fired. They get, like, completely defunded. They're on the street. So Sean will talk about this next piece of this, but it just is a very different. Very, to me, like, very visceral. Like, you're on your own now, and you still know these horrors are out there. So there's a network of people that reconnect and whatnot. But Sean will. Sean will take us through all that stuff. [00:33:10] Speaker B: Thus begins the Cowboy era. And it's important to know about the Cowboy era because you could potentially set your campaign during that era. And that era lasts from 1970 to 1994. So a long time, 24 years, math. And then in 1994, Joseph Camp, who is a veteran of Delta Green, right, The olden days, put in place the cell structure, which is. He becomes Agent Alphonse. And so because of the cowboys and how they're operating, and it's kind of all over the place, he tries to put in some type of structure. And that structure is, you know, you're part of a unique cell. It's usually the same individuals, and it's Starts with the letter of the Alphabet. So an Alphabet, a cell, is typically the operations part of what is or [00:34:08] Speaker A: was Delta Green kind of the beginnings of the reformation of it right after the. After the cowboy area era. And I would add, this has been a point of confusion for me for a long time, where I would often swap cowboy and outlaw interchangeably. And they are two very distinct things. The Cowboy era being this 70 to 94, and the outlaw era being after 2001, when a lot of those cowboys won't come in from the cold when Delta Green reforms. John will talk about this too, but it's just doing the research for this show really underscored it for me where I was like, you know, should I call one the other? And I'm like, no, these are two different time periods, two different things. [00:34:51] Speaker B: And the reason they put in camp or Agent Alphonse put in, puts in the cell kind of structure is to protect the individuals kind of from each other. It's, you know, you have a connection with a cell above and a cell below and a cell, but it is to protect the identities of those agents from leaking out and keeping secrets contained and things of that nature. So there is a method to the madness that you can read about in the books. Okay, so case in point, if you set a Delta Green will get into it, but if you set a campaign during that era, typically they will be a part of this, of this cell structure. And you might have maybe even listened to actual plays where they're like, we're part of M cell. And given that every agent has a code name that begins with the letter [00:35:41] Speaker A: of the cell, I would say again, when you come to this stuff cold, without a podcast like this one to kind of unravel some things, I find many people confuse the eras in their games. And since when the game came out in the 90s, it was in the middle of this like reformation of Delta Green thing after the cowboy period. And it's all the cells that Sean's talking about. So if you listen to actual plays or read write ups about like breakdowns of games, almost everyone always has them in. I'm in B cell, C cell, D cell, A cell or F cell, whatever. And that's just not the case for the modern program. The modern program treats you quite differently. The compartmentalization that Sean's talking about was the. Was the key where you were not even supposed to tell your partners in let's say, G cell, your real name to protect you. This was no longer a shadow government conspiracy. This was a bunch of people trying to survive and trying to keep themselves from being stamped out by. Are you going to talk about Majestic, Sean? [00:36:40] Speaker B: I'm going to touch on it briefly. [00:36:42] Speaker A: So picture this. When Delta Green gets erased in 1970, Majestic, which started in the 50s around Roswell and is a bit more of a presidential pet project at the time and whatnot, that keeps going and they do some crazy with like agreements with some of the bad actors in the cosmos and everything else. And this where Delta Green, the remnants of Delta Green and Majestic start to go really sideways. That relationship really starts to break down and whatnot, which Becomes a whole thing that exists even to today. And the fact that there's some elements of Majestic that maybe make their way into the modern Delta Green is part of why people won't join up. And they want to stay involved, but they're outlaws instead of being in the program. Right. It's all connected. It's pretty cool. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And to Kerrigan's point, when you get into the modern day, it isn't. The cell component doesn't align. However, I would argue that if you start a campaign in the early 90s and it continues and a person is recalled in the modern era, they may not know that that's not a thing anymore or it's not supposed to be. So, you know, mileage may vary because you could have a SAL structure in a 2015 game, but you have to understand as a handler why it is called, you know, B cell or, you know, G cell, and what the origins are. The players may not even understand what that means, but they also have to come from a particular space. So as we talk about these factions in the timeline, you just have to understand what the characters actually know and what they really don't know and shouldn't know or they discover through play, I guess, is what I would say. [00:38:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I've got more to say on the subject, but I think it's. It's a better conversation for after you talk about this transition from the 90s to the 2000s. And it's all the things you just touched on, like which, which part of the Delta Green are you in and do you know about the other one and all that stuff? Right. [00:38:46] Speaker B: So wrapping up the quick history timeline, fast forwarded 2002 is the. The official program is established and referred to as the program. And that's where the cowboys, they are kind of kind of reached out to and said, hey, we got this program. We would like you to join. Some actually do. And I think it's even quoted as a majority decide. Okay, great. We got the band back together and it's an official government back online. Back online. Let's do the things we've been doing, doing off grid for so long now. We have funding. We have funding. [00:39:23] Speaker A: Woo. [00:39:23] Speaker B: Yeah. All right. Got money. Which the Cowboys have never had. And now there's a group from the Cowboys that say, no way, man, I'm not joining that place. Because one of the things and the mantra about the Cowboys is, is is scorched earth. They kind of take an approach to the problems of cosmic horror and aliens and all of the details of the backdrop of Delta, of the game and the campaign in the world. And it's find it, investigate it, if there's traces, get rid of it. Period. End of discussion. And there are other individuals like Majestic12 that has been set up, which I'll go into briefly, that says, hey, wait a minute, hold on a second. We could kind of research this stuff. You know, it might be good. Like we might be able to fly, fly planes faster and da da, da, da or whatever. Right? We could use this to benefit all of humankind. And that is those two factions diametrically are opposed. One wants to harness that information, the other one's like, nobody should be involved in that. [00:40:31] Speaker A: It's too dangerous. [00:40:32] Speaker B: Too dangerous. Yeah. So 2002 programs officially started and then it schisms again. Like it splinters again. So now you have what Harrigan was talking about, which is now those individuals that do not join are referred to as the Outlaws. [00:40:50] Speaker A: Yep. [00:40:50] Speaker B: Okay, so that's where we start with some of the details and I'll go into some of the things that overlap that I just mentioned. But not too crazy, but it gives you some idea. So in 2002, the Rebirth, after operating as basically an illegal unfunded conspiracy since 1970, Delta Green's quietly brought back. And it's really prompted by the federal government folding it into the wake of 9 11. Throw in the Patriot act, all kinds of stuff. We gotta make sure mass surveillance is fired up by the nsa. Might as well. Hey, we had this old program, Delta Green. Let's do that and put that into place. So it's disguised originally starting out as a series of highly classified, ever changing counterterrorism projects, specifically one that is like referred to as the Security Studies Group, which I don't typically look into very often when I'm talking about Delta Green, Harrigan. Do you? Yeah. [00:41:48] Speaker A: Nope. Nope. [00:41:49] Speaker B: And then continuing on, there is a split, right? So many agents gladly accept into the program, which I mentioned official backing. But there is a stubborn core of veterans that decide not to, which I just mentioned. They believed that the official sanction would bring unwanted scrutiny and risk exploiting the unnatural rather than destroying it. So there is a small group of Majestic 12. In 2001, a coup is done against Majestic 12, which is a steering committee that was put into place that shuts down Majestic and then forms as Delta Green as an official program. There's elements of that committee that form the new program. But it's not Delta Green at first. It is the code name, the Security Studies Group. So there's like these like it's named this, but we do that. [00:42:48] Speaker A: I do. I do remember that. And that's. That is in that whole. You know, people are listening right now. Will maybe recognize it. I keep saying 2001 as a start for this. And that's because in 2001, that's when all this shit is happening. People are being assassinated. Like, there's a whole bunch of going on. And 2002 is when it all lands that Sean's talking about. The program is formalized, but 2001, in fact, 94 to 2001. So here's the part that I want to. That I. I interrupted you about. I think in 94, Majestic assassinates the leader of Delta Green. Right. Of the Cowboys, right? If I have that right. So, I mean, it's like open. I don't want to say open warfare, but it is on. And that's where the cells get formed. Was partly in retaliation for that. Like, all right, we need to. We need to, like, get our together because we've been this diffused group of people who operate together. So their leadership of the Outlaws. No, the Cowboys. [00:43:42] Speaker B: Cowboys. [00:43:43] Speaker A: Of the Cowboys. Just gets much more serious in 1994. And then there's all these, like. They start acting against Majestic 12. And that culminates in basically cutting off the head of the leadership. And all that is wrapped into what Sean just described around like. Like 9, 11 happens. The time is right to reform this thing, right? But they incorporate a bunch of majestic 12 people who have this, like, instead of destroying that and putting that, you know, in the field, put it in the green box, and we'll pick up that book and we'll bring it back to the lab sort of thing. And this is where I think individual GMs can lean into that or not. So you may even have the program be like, not as squeaky clean as maybe the Delta Green used to be. Maybe the Majestic 12 guys have their tendrils deep. And if you get into the Handler's guy, there's all kinds of personalities that they get into. They talk about, like, the chief operating officer and the cheap, cheaper field operations and like all this stuff, right? And it gets into all this, like, this mix of people have all come together. And this is where a few minutes ago, I said, let's wait until you're. You've described this park before we talk about it further. I. In my mind, maybe it's not explicit. All of this, a cell and all the other cells, they still exist. Those are the guys who are like that. I'm not coming in from the cold. You guys are like, half of you are Majestic 12. The other half are, you know, you're now a government program. And we know how that went last time, right? So there's just. So it's this awesome. You have this awesome ability to kind of mix and match. Like, picture you've got your, you know, JJ cell and two of them go and join the program. Now, like, you've got these old connections and whatnot. You got to recruit and replace them. Meanwhile, the two guys that join the program are like, hey, J Cell, still a thing. [00:45:27] Speaker B: It's. [00:45:27] Speaker A: It's still over there doing a thing. And they sometimes work together, sometimes they're at opposition. And the part I love maybe most of all is when either side, the. The outlaws or the program recruits someone new. They don't know about the schism. They don't know there's another group. So picture over the course of a campaign, of course of several operas, you either bump into people or you like, you know, this group, we keep. We keep like. Like brushing against. Seem like they have some of the same. The same purpose as that we do, but maybe not always. So who are these guys? Like, I think there's rich, rich veins of ore to explore here in the RP sense. For sure. [00:46:09] Speaker B: There is. Like, okay, there's Harrigan, who we knew was on the books years ago. And so as far as the program's concern, Harrigan's been out of a job. He's the postal worker. He's maybe still working the federal government, maybe he's not, but he's on a list somewhere, and they go to talk to him. And the whole time he's been part of hcel? [00:46:32] Speaker A: Yep. [00:46:32] Speaker B: And they don't know that. And they say, we got this thing. We want to get the band back together. We. We. We know that it was a very valuable thing in the world. And then, well, what's this all about? And then he gets into the program or he doesn't because he might know what's going on. Maybe he doesn't. Like he's heard. [00:46:50] Speaker A: Maybe he's in the program and still works for his cell. Like, there's so much you can do with it. [00:46:55] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:46:56] Speaker A: There's so much. Where you got. They have a mole, basically, inside, Right. Other angle I've always loved is when you think about the timing of all this, these older cowboys, now, Outlaws. These guys are old, right? You know, if you're Talking about the 2010s and beyond, the 2020s, this is like having cancer, man. From The X Files. This is the old grizzled. Seen it all, been there, done that. So they've got to recruit people. [00:47:25] Speaker B: Smoking man. [00:47:27] Speaker A: That's. Yeah, cancel, man. Cigarettes. [00:47:28] Speaker B: Smoking man. [00:47:29] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the guy I'm talking about. It's that vibe. And picture it. They've got to get some new blood into the. What they consider the real Delta Green, into the Outlaw program. So, yeah, I mean, you can even picture it where if there's an incursion or something weird happens to your PC and before the program gets to them, maybe the outlaws swoop in and. Or you've already had your discussion with the FBI behind closed doors about joining the program. When you leave, the Outlaws are there and they're like, you know what? We know where your. Where your kids live and we need your help in. In D cell, Right? Oh, my God. There's just. It's so much you can do. It's so good. Part of why I like this as much I already drone on here, Sean. Part of why I like this so much too is like, you should be thinking about things like we talked about this before, Impossible landscapes change is such a long period of history. It spans the change. So really, if you want to really get into a possible landscapes and do it really well, you're going to talk about when you go from the 90s to the 2000s, what side of the fence did you land on? Are you even aware there was a schism? And I think any of the operas that are long lasting should have that in them somewhere. [00:48:46] Speaker B: All right. [00:48:46] Speaker A: Sorry. Long time. Go ahead. [00:48:48] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's all great stuff. Yeah. Going to touch on Majestic and its influence on the program. Three key leaders from Majestic are brought into the program. So it's not just like, oh, there's a couple members of Majestic that go into the program. They're key leaders from Majestic, which means they're going to influence some of the policy of Delta Green. And if that word gets out, like what? Wait a minute, hold on a second. I just. I know these guys. They're bad news. And now you've got in like leadership roles in the program. No way, man. Like, that is. That is a foul. Anyways, continuing on eventually, the funny thing is, is the same way that Delta Green has splintered, that now we enter where Majestic splinters almost, right? [00:49:36] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:49:37] Speaker B: Which is another dynamic. So March Technologies Incorporated is then stood up at some point, which is a private defense contractor and was initially a front for Majestic. So it's a refuse of those directors that didn't Want to join the program. So the same reason those key leaders went to the program from, from Majestic. Well, there were people on their side that were like, no, no, no, we don't need any of that government stuff. Like, we've been a front. We work like a company and we're kind of like left on our own. [00:50:08] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and a lot of the Majestic angle is also like, they're making money off this. [00:50:12] Speaker B: Yeah. There's money behind it. Yeah, yeah. [00:50:14] Speaker A: There's a whole, like, I don't know, capitalism angle. And I think there have been defense contractors involved all through Majestics, sort of, you know, them being around. So it's kind of a natural thing where a bunch of them, a bunch of them leave. And in fact, Sean, as you roll towards like a wrap up of the, of the, the program side of this, the Delta Green part of this, and I talk about some of the other factions we're going to get into, not just the March, I think it's March Technologies Innovations is the name of the company. But there's more than that that come out of Majestic. Actually, it's kind of cool. [00:50:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Now they do have an uneasy partnership. If that hasn't hit home with you, like there's the ones that go off and go, hey, kind of maybe we kind of, yeah, we wanted to do it this way. But it's also, you know, the government component. And then the rest are left behind like, hey, shareholder value. So there's this dynamic of those individuals at Splint. So now you have the Cowboys or the Outlaws. Then you have members that have joined. Then you have new recruits for Delta Green that probably think it's an official program and have no idea that the cowboy era ever existed. It's a new program where we're doing the fight, you know, and then you got Majestic. That's, hey, we're researching all this stuff. And then you get scientific, ethical kind of questions that hit some of those individuals that say, well, we were doing this for the science and benefiting mankind. Maybe not maybe. And then it's like there's the corporate angle that comes into play as kind of a front to keep it. So some might say we're doing this as a front to keep it secret. And then they just take it further. They get recruited by the program. They say, yes, we want to be in on that. We know what that stands for and we want to go down that angle. And then some of them are like, no, man, I'm going to stay over here in Corporal world and reap the rewards. Of all the scientific research that we've been doing, it's all about the money, man. [00:52:14] Speaker A: And once again, you can picture the idea of like a mole really behind who's going to give them contracts, feed them information from the program. If you, you know, if you read the most current book, the program today is Delta Green, right. In fact, the Handler's Guide doesn't even. Maybe makes. Not the Handler's Guide, the Agent's Handbook maybe makes oblique reference to the fact that there's these different factions within Delta Green. But it's core assumption if a player picks up that book and reads it, is they're working for a government agency called Delta Green that no one calls it that. They all refer to it as the program, right? But man, there's. There's so much more. As soon as you get to the. The Handler's Guide that unpacks all this stuff and you really, you know, you could play it pretty straight. The part I like about the program today is that it's not clear, Sean, maybe from opera to opera or book to book, just how much of that majestic 12 kind of grody influence is there in the program. And you can lean into or away from it, right? There may even be some. Maybe the program is trying to do some self healing. Like, ooh, we've discovered some parts of our organization that we don't like very much. And there might be missions about that. Right? There's all kinds of stuff you can do. Pretty sweet. [00:53:27] Speaker B: So as that occurs, if there is wind between them, one will believe they are the true Delta Green and the other the same, right? It's like this. No, you're not. Yeah, we are. No, you're not. No, we are. And sometimes they'll run into each other during a particular opera because they've gotten wind, maybe they got a friendly, and then there's a connection to that friendly. And so then, you know, the outlaws get word of that, so they get sent off on a mission, and then it gets back to the program. They send somebody over on there and to take a look, and then they end up being in the same town looking into the same issue. [00:54:06] Speaker A: Dude, the friendly might be a member of a cell. [00:54:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:09] Speaker A: And that's how the outlaws find out, hey, there's a mission. There's an opera in Raleigh, North Carolina. You might want to get down there. [00:54:21] Speaker B: And so then there's a whole nother dynamic in that regard. But going into even the program, just briefly. So to kind of tell you a little bit about the program and what that's about the programs embedded in U.S. intelligence and defense apparatus. And this is all important because it goes into. When you're coming from the cowboy era into the outlaws, you don't have any money. So that. That goes into. Well, I go and you know, yeah, well, can I do this and can I do that? And it's like, well, no, you can't, like just call the local FBI office and try to get backgrounds on certain dossiers. Or you can try, but you have to have a contact there and it makes it harder. And when you do, it's traceable because somebody is lifting that out of a filing cabinet, checking it out of an evidence locker, and giving it to some rando. Whereas if you're part of the program. Yeah, you might actually be able to actually go and do that. And it's very funded and you can call in frickin airstrikes and all kinds of craziness. Yep, that's a big deal. Because even just recently, Harrigan, I had my buddy Jeff, he is playing an agent and he's like, I'm gonna go over to the neighbor's house because there's a nosy neighbor he's gonna go check in on. Goes to ask about the person that lives across the street. He goes over there and says, okay. And I said, well, Jeff, well, who do you. [00:55:41] Speaker A: What. [00:55:41] Speaker B: How do you introduce yourself? What badge do you show them? I show them this badge and I go, well, that's great. Now is that a fake badge or is that a cover? Because there's a difference. [00:55:54] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, we talked about this briefly. [00:55:56] Speaker B: We did, we did, off the air. And he says, no. I go, you know the difference, right, Jeff? Oh, yeah, I know the difference. And he does, he does. And I said, so is it a cover? Because if it's a cover, then it's provided to him through his day job. And if that ever gets back, they can trace that. So I can keep that in the back of my brain. As a handler, should anything go sideways, like, wait a minute, why did we get a hit of this cover being in that area? And what does that mean? [00:56:27] Speaker A: It also, though, is to his benefit. Like if. If the corporation or whatever is checking up on him and they call about that cover, they're gonna. It's gonna look real. Yes. As opposed to just being a piece of paper. [00:56:38] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:56:39] Speaker A: Yeah, Right. [00:56:40] Speaker B: So these are some of the nuances as a handler you can incorporate into. Of the game and really kind of lift it up. So anyways, the program, they can provide agents with official cover identities. Massive budgets, cleanup crews like the Air Force's Operation Coral Nomad. And the goal of the program itself is doesn't just want to kill the unnatural like the cowboys did. They want to capture and study it. So they've got that majestic influence into it. And then they also. [00:57:12] Speaker A: I think that's a big part of why not everybody joined up. Right. You know? [00:57:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:57:16] Speaker A: That's a big part. [00:57:18] Speaker B: And then they operate restricted labs and partner with shady private sector defense contractors like March Technologies. Yeah, right. So a tone. Just want to briefly touch on the tone of such a campaign set in the program era. Endless resources. But you are still upon in a terrifying machine. You're covering up state sponsored unnatural research. So even though it is an officially funded by the government, it's a black operation. It's not, you know, that's why hammers cost $500. [00:58:00] Speaker A: Yes, yes. I take issue with some of this. And this is where maybe in the first couple of episodes of the second season, we talked about how there were some conflicting messaging in what they've written around the stuff. Because in many cases Delta Green, even the current program is still like you're kind of on your own. And then they come in and they say you have endless resources. There's two things that are hard to marry up sometimes. What they're really getting at is that there's this enormous engine, this enormous, this massive, massive organization behind you, but they will disavow you in a freaking blink of an eye. And you can't ask for too much. You can't ask for it publicly and you can't ask for it like, like, like too loudly, all that sort of stuff. So it's a balance you have to strike. To my eye, you and I have talked before off camera about the whole dead drop within dead drop where there's some advice in the beginning of the, of the opera that says they may end up calling in like the Air Force in a helicopter strike or a bunch of guys like fast roping down. I'm like, I don't, I don't remember having those capabilities with my Delta Green agent. But if you think it through with, with the resources that they have in the program, if it's prearranged and whatnot, you can absolutely do that. You also might be absolutely told no way too high profile. Right? So I think there's just this balance where sometimes Delta Green can show up in force when it needs to. But most of the time they're like, you got to keep this so that no one knows about it. Dude, and it's a little bit of, you know, opposition in the, in the viewpoints, but I think you can get there with it. [00:59:35] Speaker B: Dude, if you want to run the CIA game where you have the dead drops and you have the trade craft and some of those nuances, you can absolutely incorporate it into what the program is because it is the exact same thing almost. It's the CIA agent. It is the. I'm a diplomat in a foreign office that works as an agent, and you interact with Russian politicians or diplomats themselves and you meet contacts that have trade secrets. So it is treated the same way, even probably more so, as a more top secret thing, because most of the people are like, oh, they're a diplomatic, they got diplomatic immunity. They work out of the embassy. But we know they're a spy. I'm sure they're doing spycraft and they're, you know, getting information from social, you know, parties and things of that nature and context. And with Delta Green being part of the program, it's even less so because it's like even lower. Like, like we're, we're doing this. It's official. Yes, you can get different IDs and things of that nature and covers, but it is still like black operations. [01:00:50] Speaker A: That is a fantastic take, Sean. So it's basically kind of the CIA, the real world CIA stuff amplified. CIA is an organization that while their resources are not endless, they almost might as well be in terms of what they can bring to bear. But that doesn't mean they're doing it in the open. It doesn't mean that they are doing it publicly. I'm with you. That's a great take. Great take. [01:01:12] Speaker B: Especially that component. And, you know, the program's office of security constantly monitors its own agents for signs of mental deterioration or leaks. So what Harrigan was talking about in disavowing agents and kind of being on your own, imagine being a CIA agent, like, well, you're doing an operation and you get captured and they're going to torture you and you're going to unleash a bunch of secrets. CIA is going to be like, I don't know what that guy is. He's like an executive for Volkswagen. We don't, we don't know who that guy is, you know, and also, yeah, [01:01:48] Speaker A: and also he'll have a car accident later. [01:01:50] Speaker B: Right. You know, we need to get rid of that guy in the program's capacity. They're making sure that the person isn't that, quote unquote, double agent and working for, say, even the cowboy, the outlaws and in so doing, we need to keep that person. And as soon as they become unraveled, that is a risk to the program. We can't have that risk because we don't want to be shut down. So let's shut down the operative to preserve the program as a whole. [01:02:19] Speaker A: Am I. Am I remembering as well? And maybe, maybe. I think you read the history like the timeline closer than I did this week. The prior Delta Green outfit from the 40s to 1969 is an official program, like official department or like, hanging off [01:02:37] Speaker B: of, like, security clearance. So it's part of. [01:02:40] Speaker A: That's right. So it's not. It is not. So all along then. [01:02:43] Speaker B: Yes. [01:02:44] Speaker A: So in other words, it shows up in no budget is the point. And it's true today, too, for the modern version of the program. There's no way that like an investigative journalist can go to a federal budget and dig really deep and say, ah, here's Delta Green. It's. It's a million dollars from there and $5 million from there. It's always like project funding that gets, you know, that gets allocated and it gets pooled behind the scenes to do all the allocating out of the operations. [01:03:10] Speaker B: By the agents? [01:03:12] Speaker A: Yes, by the agents who are in place. Yeah. You have somebody in fema and the person who's in FEMA is like, here's the capital project I set up. It's a $10 million capital project. And that money actually goes over here. [01:03:24] Speaker B: That's right. So when you talk about, again, when you're setting up these campaigns and you say, well, I could, I want to be a social media guy. Yes, you can be a social media person in Delta Green. But the reason specifically with the program and even prior to the fall of Delta Green, that people are federal representatives is because they need the resources from the department that they actually work in. They need the accounting person that's sitting in the U.S. postal Inspection Office so that they can move the funds around and create these weird shell projects when it's all going into the Delta Green coffers, it's just. And I think moving the lines. [01:04:05] Speaker A: That same logic you're talking about kind of the, the operations of it, right? [01:04:10] Speaker B: Yes. [01:04:10] Speaker A: But I think the field part of it, which is where, of course, the different cells form and, you know, they get. You actually are going on the operas, the same thing applies. And in that game that I've, that I've joined, that Delta Green game, that's a play by post, I think I've shared with you and some others where if everyone Is pitching ideas from outside of the federal government construct. You need some touch points there for this to really land. So you can't have, like, I'm a social media expert. I'm just a university professor. I'm a, you know, ice cream truck driver. You can have a couple of those. But when we did this, people were naming their what they wanted to be, and I'm like, I better be an FBI agent. So. So we have some connectivity and can get covers and can get, you know, just. Yeah, it turns out that another buddy of mine, dirigible, actually is in that game. He went with a fe, A fema, you know, employee. So I think we got good coverage now. But I was looking for a while, like, there's not going to be any federal connectivity at all. And you kind of need that, I think, because. [01:05:09] Speaker B: I agree. And because if you don't, then you just become a member of phenomx. Right. Then you're all the. You're the whole. Who are the guys? [01:05:18] Speaker A: You're just trying to expose it and write about it and. [01:05:21] Speaker B: Yeah, you're from the X Files. The. Actually, I think they might have been part of the government before the crazy. The conspiracy guys. [01:05:27] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What were they called? [01:05:29] Speaker B: Oh, the Lone Gunman, which is a trio of computer hacking conspiracy geeks, popularly known as the Lone Gunman. Tackling corporate and government intrigue on their own, which is fine. And if that's the game you want to go for, that's okay. Then you become those types of individuals versus something that is driven by a government or needing money. Like, you want me to take this out of my own pocket? [01:05:54] Speaker A: Like, don't we have any money for [01:05:55] Speaker B: me to travel or any resources? [01:05:58] Speaker A: It's a great game, but it's not really a Delta Green scenario. [01:06:01] Speaker B: Right, right. And if they do a book that facilitates that, then great. [01:06:07] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. And yeah, I mean, there are. There are multiple. We talked about this, I think just last week, so I won't go into it here, but there's multiple operas that. Where nobody's a member yet and it's your first encounter kind of thing. But what we're talking about here is a little bit different than that, that you are like actively investigating this stuff on your own as part of a social media thing or whatever. Right. Like the. Like the Lone Gunman. Yeah. All right, are we. Are we about ready to wrap up the schism and the big discussion on the two, you know, two or three main factions and get into the small stuff? [01:06:39] Speaker B: Actually, one thing I wanted to mention with, like, the difference, the dynamics between the outlaws and the program. I mentioned they have an occasional conflict in operations, but they have a. They call it deconflicting, which is probably easing that down a bit so they don't accidentally shoot each other in the field. So if there is word that there is the program that's involved or the other party is involved, they do tend to. To head that face on, I think, at times to ensure that they're not like, dude, we're working this. So are we. Get out of the way. So you don't shoot them inadvertently. But I don't know if that's. [01:07:20] Speaker A: I might ignore that advice. I want. I want the tension, and I don't think the outlaws actually would. Most of them don't like the program, man. [01:07:28] Speaker B: No. [01:07:29] Speaker A: But also they don't want them getting that book right. It was tablets. [01:07:34] Speaker B: And the mention of the defection piece is one that I wanted to bring up briefly, which we kind of touched on, which is outlaws are aging. They're. They're dying out. They're becoming small while the program actively tries to recruit them. So they are trying to get them back into the fold, if you will. But if an outlaw tries to defect and share secrets with the program, Asel puts your name on a short list of being removed permanently. Because they're like, no, you. We don't want the secrets that you have and the ops that you've been on to get into the hands of the program. Those guys are going to use it for nefarious reasons. It's got to be scorched earth. Remember scorched earth? It's got to stay within. [01:08:21] Speaker A: And if you lean. If you lean in the narrow direction, I can even see the program being like, capture that A cell guy or that B cell guy, and we're gonna. We're gonna torture him and we're gonna find out what he knows about X, Y, and Z that they've hidden away or say they destroyed years ago. There's so much to this. [01:08:36] Speaker B: I want to know where that green box is. We need to know where the green box is. [01:08:41] Speaker A: Picture this. New. Someone new comes in and takes over in the program. They have their own little division, whatever. They got their own operations they run. And they're going through the files and they're going to be like, huh, in 1982, this thing happened, and I need to know more about this. I need to know where that person ended up and where this went. Well, there are old grizzled guys are out there who work those jobs and you're going to find them, you know, [01:09:05] Speaker B: so even a program campaign about just digging around and some of the shit that they have cases, yes, easily. [01:09:15] Speaker A: You could see one of those majestic 12 guys being like, I'm going to have a little side project that goes back and looks at the old cases and we're going to go find some loose ends that we can pick up and build and do some research on and recover those artifacts and all the rest. Right. I call all of this, Sean, deliciously complex. Like there's a lot to it. We've just spent over an hour, I think, talking about it or close to it. And you know, there's a multi hundred page book that gets into a lot of the details. But man, it's one of those things where I am generally not a lower guy, not a, not a stock ip. Everybody's got to got to, you know, march to the same drum. But man, there's so much goodness in this background, this setting and the way that characters plug into it. It's a difference maker for me. It's one of the few that I'm like, I'm all in. I'm allure all in. [01:10:04] Speaker B: And having said that, I know with some role playing games, when they get into campaign settings, like Keith Baker Eberron author and the founder of that kind of campaign in that setting, he gets a lot of emails that talks about, hey, what about this country and what does this do and how would they handle this over there? And a lot of people would say, you know, in my Eberron or in your Eberron, it can be different. You could handle things in a different way. And the great thing about Delta Green is I know Harrigan and I like to know, probably get some of the things right and there's always that. I think those letters or inquiries are for those. Same with Forgotten Realms. How did Red Wizards of Thay use this? And I say this because like it's your own game. Who cares? Like it doesn't matter if the players aren't into the lore and then some players really, really care about that. And depending on how you run Delta Green, none of this sometimes matters whether you have it buttoned up because there is so many weird shifts and backdoor dealings that if the players think this way or they think they're part of the program and you as the handler say they're really not, but let them think that all they want. You can do that. [01:11:21] Speaker A: You can dump half the stuff on the floor, Sean, and just be you work for a government black ops conspiracy Try to remove unnatural threats. Go. [01:11:30] Speaker B: But, like, even Jeff's character, he was like, I kind of want to look into some of this stuff, like, why I want to know more about it. And I go, okay. You know, a couple years go by, and as a CIA analyst, you start kind of poking around databases to see if this, like, Delta Green thing exists. And so I just peel back some of those layers and give them little. Little tidbits like, why is that car been following me? Like, I've seen that car at least. Like, it was, like, every week, and now it's like, once a month. And it's the same car or the same guy in the same coffee shop. Something's like, what is that? Get him the paranoia into it a little bit. Yeah, yeah. [01:12:06] Speaker A: You know what? You've got a PC idea there where, you know, if you. If you do this in a way that really connects everything up. You. You. You detail out what your experience was. Your inciting incident, your experience with the unnatural. There's a PC idea here where maybe an analyst just runs across these cases, and it's just putting two and two and two and two and two together. And at some point, someone knocks on my dorm, we're like, we know you saw these files. So here are your options. You're either in the program or you're demoted and working, you know, in the back office somewhere, or, you know, worse than that. But there's like, oh, man, lots of angles. But last thing I would say, on the. On the. On that element of it, like, the. The. The density of the lore and the. And the mandatory use of it, which is absolutely not. You can get rid of and change anything you want. And I think throughout. Actually, throughout a discussion this morning, Sean, there have been a few things where I've been like, I don't think I would do it that way. Like, I don't. I don't like this. You know, don't. Don't shoot each other in the field. I'm not playing my two versions of Delta Green like that. They know at the leadership level, they know about each other and they don't like each other. Like, I think that's. That's the way I'm playing it. [01:13:13] Speaker B: I would go. I would argue this, though, and that's fine. That's your game. I mean, I don't know if it could be wrong, you know, I don't know. But one angle you are not, maybe not considering is that outlaw being an asset to the program. [01:13:28] Speaker A: Oh, there's exceptions all over the place. [01:13:30] Speaker B: We want him Alive, then dead. Because, yeah, we hate him. We don't like him. He's, you know, even if he's the biggest a hole around and done really nefarious things, he knows so much that we need. [01:13:43] Speaker A: So I have been known to have bad wrong fun, if you want to just point to that. I guess what I'm getting at is I would not have the basis for be a, you know, identify and then don't shoot, don't, don't, don't engage in gunfire. It would be more along the lines of, like, when you identify them. Holy. Now, there's a whole another angle here we have to think about because, like, who. Who was it? And let's identify who he's connected to. But it becomes a whole thing. Not just, hey, we bumped into one of those teams, but we identify them. So we're. We're good. If I'm the program, I'm like, you bumped into who, where, when, you know, you got your notebook out, you're like, tell me more. That kind of thing. That's how I want to play it. I think in the end, I think the pro move is to start simple so that you're not overwhelming the players with this stuff, and then you gradually add to it in the directions that everybody's interested in. So if they're interested in understanding that there are some corporations that are kind of hinky, and then they find out that, holy shit, they used to be part of the government, these guys, back when the. Rather than giving them a big lower dump over any of this stuff, you'd have to. You have to kind of breadcrumb it, I think, for sure. Get them there gradually. [01:14:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Because part of the deal is whether they're part of the program or the outlaws, in the end, they're given a mission brief and how that is facilitated. Right. And then they're going to go and investigate, and then they're going to do the thing. What Harrigan and I kind of are bringing up in a little bit more detail today is just how you feed some of those details and some of the levers you can push outside of that tangentially. Aside from that, or making a little bit more intriguing, it's not the thing, but it also gives you a little bit of motivation on, well, why don't I get money to fly to different missions? Well, we don't have any. Like, my player group, dude, how come we can't get any money? Why are we getting, like, what's going on? And it's like, that's a pretty Damn good question. [01:15:36] Speaker A: Here's what, you know, what you put up, I think put a point on it here. Here's what it boils down to for me. I really like games, RPGs where as the game master, I'm leafing through them, I'm getting familiar with the system, the setting, etc. And certain games ideas start to pour off the page for me. Hooks appear where I'm like, oh, that location. I know what I want to do at that location. This group, this thing. Quite frankly, I've talked briefly in other places, but maybe not on this show about the DreamPod 9 games of the 90s, which is a Montreal based RPG shop that did Heavy Gear Tribe 8, Jovian Chronicles. For whatever reason, the way they wrote those books, I could open up any book, turn to a random page, read and go two adventure ideas like right in front of me. And the Delta Green lore is like that for me, where I'm like, oh, I want to run a game in the 40s where it's not just. It's not just British commandos and the French Maquis trying to blow up a bridge. There's actually a Nazi because there's a whole thing where the Nazis are making connections with the Cult of Dagon on the coast of France. Like there's all kinds of stuff you can do. So little, those hooks just raise off the page. For me, when I look through this stuff, it can be overwhelming. You don't want to make it be a cannon blast of information, but pick your spots that you want to kind of dig into and it just adds this texture to the campaign that is like so good. And I think last thing I will say is it's one of those things where you can, you know, you can develop these games and kind of develop the lore as you go and do all that sort of stuff and develop a patchwork of how it all fits together. Having this blueprint in the background makes it really grounded and real easy. Easier for the GM to kind of go back and say, how did that, how did that work? Where'd that group come from? Instead of having to develop it all in the moment and take copious notes and whatnot, because the players can apply to come up with the idea. Having it be trad in that sense of like the world exists already and the players are experiencing it, they are not creating it right. I think is, is a big part of this too. [01:17:42] Speaker B: I. I will, I will move, I'll move the transition. And that's great and fantastic. And now as, as we talk about where how do you kind of set what things and things you want to be put in no motion. I'm going to pass the torch to Harrigan because you can center your campaign around specific antagonists and. [01:18:06] Speaker A: Yeah, so let's do this. I know we're well into the show already, so I'll make this a bit of a speed round. But there are a bunch of other factions beyond the program. Majestic, the Cowboys, the Outlaws, the core stuff we've already talked about. Some of them are considered kind of quasi like they're on your side. I won't call them good guys, but they're like they have the same aims in mind. And these include things like the Canadian M Epic group, the UK Pisces group. So the same way that throughout history the American government has encountered these weird things. So the British. So have the Canadians. So the Russians, they have a GRU SV8 group that where they look at similar things. So you can do cool things where like the two groups are teaming up or at odds and you know, there's a little bit of history, but I think you have a lot of room to play with this kind of stuff. Just know there's some other organizations that are out there and Sean, we talked last week. I think about like I wanted to. I want my Delta Green experience to be kind of global, not so much US focused. And in my reading this week I learned that that is the case. And in fact the modern program goes all over the world, whereas the Outlaws tend to focus on the continental US because they don't have the resources, they don't have the same reach. All right, moving beyond that, there's some big, big ass like opposition factions like basically Nazis. So the, you know, popular in sort of pulp stories all over is always this idea of the Germans and the. In the Second World War and the SS trying to find formulas that will make their soldiers come back to life and be have an undead army or cast spells. You get into this in like the Hellboy comics. There's like all this like occultism that can be wrapped up in, in the Nazi shtick. And in Delta Green, this is a group called the Karotechia. It's part of the SS and it's all about finding hidden cities, spells, amassing artifacts and books. And it doesn't go away at the end of the war. It sort of, you know, makes off with some of this stuff and is still a thing in the present day. So this is a group that's still around now that you can kind of, it can kind of get involved with. There's all the. What I would say the kind of. The intelligent, unnatural factions. So the Migo, elder things, deep ones. There's ghoul clans, there are serpent folk, there's the Cho Chos. I'm not going to go into the. You know, just look any of these up if you want to understand more about them. The great race and the Leigor. A lot of these come from Lovecraft. These are Lovecraftian mythos things, but they have their own plans, their own aims. Many of those are so alien we can't understand them. But you better believe, like, they're trying to accomplish something. And a lot of them are playing, like a very long game. Like, if you look at the Migo and their connection with Roswell and the. And the Grays and all that sort of stuff, they're like, it's, you know, just as much conspiracy in that as there is in the rest of this stuff. But it's interesting that this is not like a monster of the week kind of go kill the thing and now it's dead. You know, everyone knows. I think this is cosmic horror. And you typically. Bullets aren't going to help you anyway. But beyond that, you're usually seeing the edges of something that these larger groups are working on, like if it's elder things or something like that, where you're like, wow, that was a, you know, what a. What a wild experience we had. And in the end, you're going to be like, what were they doing? Why were they there? And there's a whole set of things you can put in motion around that. And then beyond that, there's all of the. Kind of. The cults and the different groups that, like, worship these things or are trying to make contact with these things for various reasons. So Esoteric Order of Dagon, the exalted Circle, the Sowers, the lonely. Have you read about the lonely? [01:21:43] Speaker B: I have not. [01:21:44] Speaker A: The lonely are. There's some. There's some wackos in the background, some creepy people in the background who are all very king and yellow Carcosa kind of oriented. And they are basically grabbing people in cells and other people who are on the fringes of society and getting them to do horrendous things by kind of grooming them. So there's the whole thing around that you mentioned, the fate already that Detwiller is working on right now, like a revisit of that. That is a group in New York city in the 80s and 90s that do these hypogeometric crimes. So there are Spellcasters sort of thing. But, you know, as you might expect, that tends to go badly in Delta Green. There's a place that. Called the Druid Hills, Ghoul Court, where some upper level, like, upper levels of society who want to live forever, they've turned themselves into ghouls to do that. There's a Dream Syndicate organization that is a deep exploration of the human conscious, subconscious dream state, which gets into Lovecraft's, like, dream world and all that sort of stuff and how you can, like, enter it and travel and all sorts of stuff. We already talked about March technology innovations coming off of Majestic. Well, the Breckenridge Corporation also formed from there, as did a company called Akiso and one called the Quiet Children. Do you know this one? [01:23:06] Speaker B: I don't. [01:23:08] Speaker A: The Quiet Children. Sounds just horrific. It is a network of operatives of cultists in our immigration and detention facilities for kids used to abduct children that will be used in rituals. So it's. It's dark. It's like, it's super dark. The Quiet Children. I love this one. There's a group called Persistent Vigil, which they develop technology that think of next generation like surveillance, like satellites, drones, et cetera. And because they have this network, they're starting to see too much. Their eyes in the sky are like, what did we just witness? And they're starting to catch the unnatural. So there's a whole. So for all of these, what I would say to our listeners is like, just figure out ways to plug into this stuff where you're. You're investigating them, you're. They're investigating you, they're. You're bumping into each other on. On this stuff. It's just. It's amazing. There's a law firm in California in this game called Keys, Norris, Ingalls and Grant. And what do they do? Well, they are experts in discrediting frame and framing and intimidating witnesses and people who have witnessed this stuff. They're specialists. And like, I love it. I love it. Like, if you wanted somebody, they won't shut up. They're keeping. They keep talking to the public about it. Sickness, law firm on them, you know, and beyond that, you got to put a bullet in them, unfortunately, if they keep talking. But I love that there's a law firm that does this stuff. And then like the lone gunman that Sean talked about earlier, there is Saucer Watch and Phenomex, which are like news and investigative reporting outfits. You can picture. They have YouTube channels and that sort of thing where they're trying to go where the weird things are happening and prove that they exist and prove that the government, a government cover up and all that sort of stuff. And then I also like a lot, there's a couple of agencies that Delta Green can kind of lean on. There's one called the Witness Alliance. It's an anti hate group and it keeps running across in the lore, it keeps running across Delta Green ops and like, like trying to uncover like what, what's the government doing here? And then the one that Delta Green can make use of, there's something called the center for the Missing Child, which is often used as a cover. So whenever children go missing, people go missing. Often it's like an FBI or a CIA or a federal marshal sort of COVID story for how the group gets involved. Well, they often use these types of organizations that are looking for missing kids and that sort of thing as well. Just dude, so cool. You can always invent your own as well. And I would say this is paired so tightly with the Lovecraft mythos. There's some pretty good stuff from Chaosium. There's a whole book on cults for Call of Cthulhu. You could pick that up and easily just modernize it. Look at what the cult's trying to accomplish and match your Delta Green up. Right? Because it's the same mythos and everything else. I don't know, there's just. There's a lot of faction play at the lower level that they've already baked in that. This is, this is where Sean, for me, the ideas just start popping off the page where I'm like, oh, I'm not to use that group. Pretty cool. Did you come across any others that I'm forgetting about or anything you want to, you want to comment on for that little, that blast of factions? [01:26:11] Speaker B: No, I cannot think off the top of my head. It's funny because I've run an operation. I've run an app that included a couple of these that were from classic. Like they can come into a situation and they introduce certain complexities and things that are going on in a certain operation where it's like, oh, I'm going to. That's the funny thing is you could take an operation, even if it's a shotgun scenario or something, whether it's a campaign long term. Okay, here's, here's what they're going to go and do. And some of these published ones will maybe incorporate one or two of these. And if you come up with your own implement, you know, put in a couple of these and it just makes it More interesting, like Phenomx, you know, arrives and they're investigating the UFO sightings. The UFO sightings. Right. [01:27:01] Speaker A: A hundred percent. [01:27:02] Speaker B: And they get wind of your group asking around for the same questions. And, oh, they're wait, what's the FBI doing here? And, yeah, it gets into. There's a scenario out there. I won't give it away, but that. That incorporates that specifically. So now the agents are having to deal with what they're sent to deal with. And they have Phenomex dinking around in their. [01:27:22] Speaker A: In their yard, you know, or consider persistent visual. Who's caught you on camera doing something you shouldn't be doing. It may not even be unnatural, but they're like, oh, look at this agent killing somebody or whatever. Right, right, right. Oh, you know what? All of this leads back to that one of those core tenets of the system, which is most of your opposition are human. Like. Like this is not a horror show where you've got, you know, you're killing monsters every week kind of thing. And even. Even encountering them, you have to build to that. All these organizations are meant to be. Obstacles are meant to be. They're helping you out. They're making things more complicated. Picture you can form bonds with these guys. If you were like, maybe you start to. You realize that this persistent vigil organization, we can make use of their advanced surveillance technology. So you develop a relationship with them, and maybe on an operation, you even can put a call into them to say, we need to see if you have eyes on xyz. Oh, there's so much you can do. It's good, man. It's good. I think that's all I got, Sean. I know we got on for a while today. [01:28:27] Speaker B: If you've used this particular faction or you've had a certain dynamic within the games that you've run, if you're a player, what have. Have you run into where there's the unveiling and. And the peeling back of some of these layers? We would be interested to know. Write in to us at our website or hit us up@grange gobagpod.com for email. We'd be interested to know on behalf of Harrigan and I, thanks for listening to Go Bag, and we'll check you on the next one. See ya. This episode of Go Bag, produced with help from the following friendlies. Field out operatives, special agents and black ops directors. 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