[00:00:00] Speaker A: This episode of Go Bag, we get a movie recommendation from Victor Wyatt. I find another great resource for Delta Green handlers. We find out that Harrigan actually listens to a podcast that myself and Ryan west recommended that's espionage based. And then we wrap up our deep dive into TSR's top secret. But not before we find out if it checks all the boxes for what Harrigan wants in a tabletop espionage rpg.
Hit it.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Strap in. Operatives. This is Go Bag. Your all access pass to modern day RPGs loaded with bullets, backstories, and a whole lot of bad decisions. And here are your mission leaders, Sean and Harrigan.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: Hey, everybody, I'm Sean
[00:00:46] Speaker B: and I'm Harrigan.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Hey, Harrigan, how's it going?
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Good, good. How are you, sunshine?
[00:00:55] Speaker A: Bright eyed and bushy tailed.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Excellent.
What have you been up to this week? In gaming and especially in espionage stuff,
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Delta Green got better and more interesting.
Oh, I had mentioned to you in the Thursday night group we play in that we wrapped up out Cast Over Raiders. In the chat, I think somebody asked, I don't know how it came up actually. I think it was because we were going to contemplate playing Delta Green and I was talking about my buddy Jeff and how he was going to create a explosive device out of the fertilizer and probably do something with it. And he rolled a critical, although I didn't tell him to roll. I just said, you know what I love about demolitions is skill checks, because we all know like, that could go south pretty quickly.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: So he bounced dice immediately.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: 88 was the result, which is for you and I know, a critical failure.
So he's like, great, fine, I guess. Well, that's it. And that was kind of.
I said, well, hold on a second.
And then I. I allowed his character to survive, basically. But.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: Oh, so you played the session after. Oh, I get it, I get it. So was he assembling the bomb? Is that what you turned the role into? Or was it more?
[00:02:16] Speaker A: I mean, I was kind of being facetious, like he's gonna put it. I thought it was planet somewhere.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: And yeah, I thought it was like procuring the materials and that kind of thing. Right.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: No, I mean, I flippantly threw it out there. As if you were to say, okay, I'm going to put a bomb together and I go, great, give me a check. And you go, boom. Critical failure result.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: Okay. Irish car bomb in London that goes off in your backpack as you're carrying it to the destination. Right. Or whatever. Text me later and said, you really should have killed my character. And I said in Delta Green it's, that's too easy, Jeff.
There's, there's, there's fates worse than death and Delta Green and he's like y. That's true.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: Worst thing, worst things in mind.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Yes. And then I watched, I started watching the. I think it's the show you mentioned and of course I failed to remember the stupid name of it, but it's the, the 911 spy ops.
I don't know if it's Spy Ops, but it's the whole documentary series of 911 and the Hunt for Osama bin Laden.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Oh, that's. No, that's not the one.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Okay. They didn't really go into a lot of the nuances that the first casualty book, I think that's the book's title goes into and. Yeah. Which is, you know, $30 million walking into Afghanistan with a team of like
[00:03:48] Speaker B: six CIA agents and two helicopters that mechanically were on sound and.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Yeah. But interesting nonetheless. I think that is it for me that I could think of. You've got quite a bit of stuff going on.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: I had a busy week. So we indeed finished our Outcast Silver Raiders game and we're. We've got a slate of games we're looking at. Know what's next? I think you're going to run Death Match island if I reading the room correctly, which would be kind of fun.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: That's the goal. Yeah.
[00:04:19] Speaker B: And then I think the group is open to the two of us running a bit of espionage to support the show and that sort of thing. Right. So whether it's Delta Green or some other things, we may even do some one shot. So with that group, for people who don't know us, we play bi weekly fortnightly every two weeks.
And we tend to not play the main campaign if even one of us is missing because we just like to have that cohesion. And we also have a group. The group is pretty good at making most sessions.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: But it gives us one shot opportunities when we're on those off weeks when somebody can't make it. So we may drop a couple of one shot spy games in there. We'll. We'll see. But other than that. I got a new issue of Harrigan's hearth up number 21. I'm still getting that Covert ops play by post game off the ground. It's kind of slow going because people are busy.
[00:05:06] Speaker A: But.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: But we'll. We'll get there. Last night I attended the Denver Gaming club Ship of the Dead, which is put on by Luke Stratton, better known as Limathron, played Mothership, played Nave 2e, had a great time. It's kind of an OSR focused or non sort of a alt, alt RPG focused group, which is pretty cool. And then in terms of the spy stuff, I, I was a voracious consumer. This past week I realized that some of the Mission Impossible movies were about to leave one of the streaming services. So I watched 1, 2 and 3 and, and I've started number four, which is ghost Protocol. And at some point we'll do more about the media side of things so I can get into what I think is good and bad about some of these movies. I'm still reading Live and Let Die actually. I kind of put it down for the week, so I haven't made much progress on it. And then lastly, or almost lastly, recall I, I mentioned when I went to a con recently, I met a fella who worked in TV production and post production and he had some ideas about a certain time period for espionage, which is about turn of the century kind of thing. Right.
I found my notes and he had recommended a show called Riley Ace of Spies, which stars Sam Neill, who I love as an actor, although I discovered this week it's from 1983.
Yeah. So I haven't dove in yet and I don't know if I will. I, you know, I'll get to it maybe eventually.
And he also recommended something called Spies of Warsaw in terms of that sort of early in the century espionage stuff. And interestingly, when we get to our section where we're sharing, you know, links and things that out and around on the web and other places, I'll. I'll return to this idea of sort of early, early 20th century espionage because it's kind of one of those links talks about, talks about it in detail. And then lastly I've done some kind of recollecting about movies I've seen recently or last little while that I think are well suited for this show. And if you haven't seen Anthropoid, Anthropoid is awesome. I believe it's been a while since I've seen it, so I may have the specifics wrong, but I believe it is about second World War resistance in, in Czechoslovakia, what is now the Czech Republic.
And it's fantastic. But I also have recently watched Mosul, which is about some Iraqi special forces in Iraq and Warfare, which is about US unit in Iraq, where things that's a kind of a slice of life like a, like a bad day in the life of A unit type of thing based on a real story. Both, in fact, both Mosul and Warfare are both based on true stories. And they're not exactly espionage. They're a little, little more sort of on the ground, you know, either hunting insurgents or that kind of thing. But man, are they both really good movies. So, yeah, I've had a busy week.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Very cool, man.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: Let's get into it. Let's get into sit rep.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Give me
[00:08:07] Speaker A: the sit rep. A little premature.
We have a three this week.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: We do.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: First one. You want to tackle that one. That was the one you put up for Victor.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
And we. You know, there's a discord that supports Sean's sort of main endeavors here in. In Cyberspace. Formerly the GBS Discord, now the BS Landia Discord. And there's a fantastic community there that talks about all things gaming and related media and interests and all that good stuff. So there's a channel that supports the show and fan and friend of the show, Victor has come forward and recommended the series counterpart. It's a two se, two seasons, I think it was originally stars. I'm not sure where you'd find it now.
I won't. I don't want to spoil it. I don't know. I haven't seen it yet, so I don't want to get into too much detail. But it involves sort of some low down espionage, you know, down and dirty kind of stuff. Relatively realistic, combined with a science fiction element where there's sort of. There's a multi dimensional thing going on, but it's not, it's not outlandish. It's not like we're talking about the Marvel Multiverse sort of thing. It looks a. A lot more sort of low to the ground than that. Did you have a look at it, Sean?
[00:09:18] Speaker A: I looked at the preview because I brought it up on my IMDb so I could put the link in the. In the notes. Yeah, I think it looks interesting. I'm a fan of Simmons.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. J.K. simmons is in it.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: It's more.
It's interest. I think we're going to get a ton of suspense versus espionage and covert ops.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: It reminds me in some ways and I haven't seen this show either. Like, but like the man in High Castle kind of thing where it's like quasi historical but there's a sci fi bent. There's a. Even though it's not like a, like a, you know, aliens landing, sci fi. It's not that type of thing.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: I know what you mean. There's more going on than just the. The straight espionage part of it, which might be the. The espionage since we haven't seen it. The espionage part might be the conceit that sets up this other story, but we won't know until we actually.
[00:10:09] Speaker A: That's fair. That's fair. True.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: Very true.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: The second one is the Delta Green scenario book.
I don't know how I came across this somewhere in my, like, journey across the web for Delta Green content. And I think I subscribed and it popped up as maybe an update. I haven't used it yet, but it has a few different formats that you can download and they actually tout using it for shotgun scenarios and putting them together because I think it's got a worksheet that you can kind of jot things down quickly, which isn't probably bad for any type of prep. Sometimes we just have lots of different ideas or, you know, we need something that just kind of keeps us within a box. And sometimes these like work bookie worksheets may be good to use.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: So I will be honest with you.
You have shared, I think, three or four, or maybe at least two or three pretty neat Delta Green resources in the first few episodes of the show here. I haven't looked at them carefully yet. You know, I need the time to like, really, I glanced at them and kind of breeze through them, but I want to sink my teeth into them a little bit, I think. You know, my preferred.
My preferred version of Delta Green is often a little smaller in scope than some people might go for. So instead of the big giant 300 page campaigns, more along the lines of the missions you're being given are weird and short. Go to this place and do this thing, mail this thing, pick it up from here, take it over there and mail it or deliver it to somebody. Or simple missions. Like check on this math professor who we don't trust right now. You know, we think there's some hypergeometry in his. In his lessons. And then the thing sort of sprawls from there like you start unraveling it as opposed to really big picture stuff. And I think these little tools that you've been posting are really well suited for that style of like start small and then start to reveal how up all this is. Excuse my French.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: For sure. For sure.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
You want me to cover the last one?
[00:12:11] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: All right, I'll do. I'll do it quickly here. This is something you recommended to me years ago when we first started talking about both liking espionage games.
And I'LL try to do my best. Sean Kelly here. Or maybe I won't.
[00:12:25] Speaker A: Yeah, careful. Yeah.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: You basically said, have you, have you heard this, this podcast called the Rest is Classified? To which I said, no, I haven't heard that.
So I have.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Only sounds like a very good Harrigan, just so you know.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I can do him pretty good it turns out. Yeah, my Harrigan is spot on. Yeah, I remember listening to a few episodes and then just lost track. You know how you get stuff in your podcatcher and you just, you know, other stuff comes on top, etc. So this is a podcast that covers real world scenarios and It's a former CIA operative and it is a journalist who's covered MI6 deeply. And in fact the journalist is by far the more knowledgeable guy. If you listen to the show, they both provide great color, great perspectives. But as opposed to the spy op show that I sort of, you know, groaned about last week where I didn't think it was all that great in terms of the treatment they were giving things. This show that the Rest is Classified does fantastic work. They do multi part episodes on things.
So just, you know, I don't want to go too far into it, but check it out. I've already listened to a bunch of episodes recently. I've returned to it around the Iranian nuclear program, which kind of gets into a lot of what's happening geopolitics wise in the Middle east today.
There's some really cool stuff about the founding of MI6 that I listen to. I'm currently listening to how the allies took out the, the Nazi heavy water and nuclear program in 1942 in Norway.
There's some really, really neat stuff in there. They get into good stuff. And one of my favorite takeaways, Sean, was then this is actually from the CIA agent when the Israelis had some ops in Iran in 2020, 20 I think it was, is when you're going to hit someone, you're going to assassinate someone, there's all this human intellig gather and then you combine that with the SIGINT to establish what they call pattern of life, which is pretty cool. So in other words, when you're going to assassinate somebody, you do not pick your means and your methods and then go try to apply them. You watch and you watch and you watch and you find the vulnerability in their patterns of what they do on a day to day basis and you build your mission around that. And the, the episode around this is one particular Iranian nuclear scientists that got taken out. Again, we're not Trying to be political on this show. It's, you know, for better or for worse. It's an awful thing to murder anybody. Right.
But the operation is astounding. What was done to make this happen. So the show is really good, so thank you for recommending it all those years ago.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember that episode. And that's that. That small series that they went into. Yeah, it's great. And some of them I'm bigger fans of than others. Like, they even go into MK Ultra, which is crazy, and some of those other details.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: But, yeah, I. I feel the same way. Like. Like, I am not plowing through those episodes. I am picking and choosing the topics, kind of hopping around. But it works well that way.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: It's a good. It's a good show, and somebody recommended it on a Saturday stream because I think I was talking about espionage games well before this show, and I might have been. Ryan west, honestly, they're like, oh, Sean, you need to listen to this and this. I'm like, I'll check it out. And I put one of them in there.
[00:15:33] Speaker B: Well, if that's the case, thank you, Ryan.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: Could be wrong if it wasn't Ryan, but yeah.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Encrypted comms.
Sir, we have an incoming encrypted transmission.
We'll do the intro, but not anything to provide in this episode.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: Again, too heavily encrypted. We're still working on the Cipher.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: We are indeed. But we have had a submission that I want to acknowledge, and that's our buddy Gabe. So Gabe. Gabe has given us one. It's a little bit more in depth.
Harrigan and I have talked about it. We want to save it for probably a longer Q and A focused episode and include it so it. Gabe, thank you so much. We don't want to discount the fact that you said it, you know, sent it to us, and we're ignoring it by any means because it brings up some very good points and probably three, I think, topics that we can address. For sure.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah. In fact, I think it's a great call. I'm really looking forward. Really looking forward to responding to it. Gabe, thank you for sending it in. People I think know by now, like, you know, there's a variety of ways you can get a hold of us, whether it's email or, you know, talk to us in that Discord channel that I mentioned or leave a voicemail like Gabe did.
Yeah, there's. Let's. Let's. Let's hold off on that. I don't think that Q and A show is very far away. We get another couple of write ins or calls or something. We'll bundle them together. What we're more worried about, worried about is they're probably, you know, the call is more than 10 minutes long and I think our responses would probably, probably be as long at least. And that'll make this episode super long because we have some top secret to get to.
However, one last thing on encrypted comm, Sean, is there any further word from your. Your stalker, your favorite fan, mudskipper?
[00:17:20] Speaker A: There has not. I have not. He's gone.
[00:17:23] Speaker B: He's gone radio silent.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: It's gone quiet.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: And rightfully so.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: Beneath the waves, Sean is pointing threateningly.
[00:17:32] Speaker A: That's right.
Got your number, Mud Skipper, wherever you are, I will find you. I will see you and I will hug you.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Once again.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: That's again right.
But if you do have an encrypted comm that you want to send us a grenade, you want to throw us, email us at
[email protected] or you could call 929.
Big dice is the voicemail. Or if you happen to know our Discord server and you want to record something and drop it sometimes there's limitations with the voicemail. That's fine too. So there you go.
Anything else on that?
[00:18:12] Speaker B: Moving on, moving on.
Have a seat.
Let's get on with the mission brief.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: The mission brief. Top Secret Deep Dive part. Duh.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: Yes.
Great movie.
[00:18:28] Speaker A: The sa. The saga continues. Oh my God.
I love you more. Rasmussen. I just want you to know that when I see you at gamehole Con and should you hear this, I. I
[00:18:42] Speaker B: want to say all of what we're about to cover and what we've covered in the previous two episodes, we, we do so lovingly. Like, the game is amazing and there was no blueprint for it.
So it's really hard to level any kind of criticism, constructive or otherwise, without the recognition of. God damn, this is cool. Like someone, you know, did all this work with. No, nothing else to work from.
Now having said that, I still don't think the thing is all that playable and correct me if I'm wrong, Sean, where this is meant to be the last part of the Deep Dive into Top Secret where we. We're going to focus on combat today. We talked about character generation last week. So we've got, we've got some more details we want to get into. We got some, some interesting tidbits to unearth and sort of analyze and look at from different perspectives. But from there I think we are going to be moving on to whether it's, you know, another game we cover or the vignette or something. We haven't quite decided what we're doing next week yet, but we'll, we'll get there. Yeah, but why don't you. You are the handler, you are the mission lead for Top Secret.
Take us there, man.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: It's an important role, but I'm, I'm here for it.
Continuing where we left off. Like Harrigan mentioned last episode 5 in the grand scheme of things, covered up to some deep dive is about the system and things of that nature. Now we're getting into character generation or got into character generation, moving into more of a combat. What it is, how it works.
To start off, there are just to kind of highlight seven pages dedicated to combat. And the pages are eight and a half by 1110 size, font. Nine, nine point font, maybe two column I think.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's two column.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And a lot of tables. So just dense, dense, a lot of stuff. It starts off with the field of fire of all things. There's a diagram.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: So weird.
[00:20:39] Speaker A: There's a diagram on a page of a person and then there's two arcs going out, you know, an arrow or if you're a geometry fan, it would be considered a ray, if I'm not mistaken. Going back to my high school geometry days with an arrow from the point of origin and then 45 degree angle to the right, 45 degree angle to the left.
So that rey is bisecting the 90 degree angle. That's, that's your field of fire and you can't fire outside of that, but you can change it. And it takes a phase to do that. Just so you know.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: How many phases in a combat round?
[00:21:19] Speaker A: Sean, that is a great question. I don't recall offhand, do you know, off the top of your head, five
[00:21:27] Speaker B: 1 second phases in a 5 second combat round.
Let me interject here just briefly as you start.
So first of all, like this field of fire diagram that I think we're probably both looking at still for a game that does not get into like the rest of the seven page combat section and the movement section and everything else, it doesn't get into great detail about like terrain and movement and maps and tactical movement and all that kind of stuff.
So to start off by saying facing is the most important thing, it's kind of weird.
It's literally, you know, you have to spend some of your actions to turn around and that kind of thing. So it's. And this is not unusual for the Time. It's a little earlier than some other games that are like this, but I mean, when GURPS arrives in the scene, you know, based on Fantasy Trip and whatnot, you've got one second combat rounds. So it's the same sort of thing. You know, GURPS has things like you take a step and you attack. Like you go. You literally go, you know, three yard or one yard and. And then you do a thing just. But just so people appreciate this, like the, the density of it, like the reading, the. The opening bit here, the general combat information. Combat is divided into two distinct types. Projectile combat, including gunfire and hand to hand combat. Each of these will be dealt with separately in the sections following. In addition, a special type of hand to hand combat called possession combat is used when. And it goes on and on and on. So it's not written succinctly in terms of what the rules actually are.
So quite frankly, to figure out, like, how does getting hurt work? How many life points do you have? And what happens when you run out? That is not called out very clearly. And that's true throughout this whole section where it's kind of stream of consciousness written with some diagrams and tables dropped in. But anyway, I'm interrupting you. It's a wild. It's a wild combat system, man. Keep going.
[00:23:15] Speaker A: So the.
You have to determine what comes first. You know, typically, let's face it, traditional games roll initiative. It's side initiative, typically, maybe it's not, I don't know, or individual initiative. And it's ranked stack. And then you, you roll the hit.
There's something that happens and then there's damage.
Not as straightforward in this game, I will say that.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: So bear with me. I know walking through instructions audio wise is probably not the most exhilarating experience in the world. So Harrigan, I will add personal flavor and commentary to it, I think.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Color guy.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Yes, the color guy. Yes. So the sequence is this.
There's a few things. Four things you have to check off in the beginning. One, if either character wishes to fight for possession of an item and they start within five feet. If any of those apply, great. If not, go to the next thing.
If neither wishes to do possession combat but either wishes to do hand to hand and are in 10ft of each other, then you do hand to hand.
Okay. If those don't apply, then it's. If neither wishes to engage in possession combat or hand to hand, or if it's too far away, then projectile combat can occur.
None of those apply. Then if neither character wishes to do combat. Then both characters can move normally.
Did everybody get what I'm putting down?
[00:25:06] Speaker B: I mean, it come. It comes from. It's not far off from some of the older D and D sequence or missile fire is treated separately than melee, which is treated differently than movement and all that stuff. Right? Not too far.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Yeah. It's miss, like in bx, isn't it? Missile movement, melee, magic. I think that's the order, Right. You start casting and then at the end it goes off and. Yeah, and so that's what I picked up when I first thought about it in my brain.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: I don't know, Sean. My. My D and D was AD and D and it had sequences and, you know, and I ignored them.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: So possession combat, which I didn't get into, is if you're gonna fight over something and there's a whole thing. But I. I don't even think I mapped it out, honestly.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: There's a whole thing.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: There's a whole. There is a whole. There's a whole thing. So continuing on, you got to start with surprise.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: Let me say one. Let me say one quick thing because again, you know, we're being a little. A little glib here. You know, it's. Once you. Once you internalize these rules, I think they're easy to apply. It's the whole like you trying to grab something from the person. No. Are they close enough to beat on? And if not, you know, then you're firing or you're moving kind of thing. So I think you can internalize them, but the way it's. Way it's laid out and portrayed is. Is hilarious. So anyway, keep going. Take us into surprise.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: I agree.
Surprise.
You got to compare surprise values. Okay. Because each character has a surprise value. It's a stat.
So that's the. If you don't recall from the last episode, surprise is the average of deception and evasion. It's both of those are derived secondary personal traits.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: So if you're charming, you're hard to surprise.
That's what you're saying?
[00:26:57] Speaker A: That is exactly what I'm saying. Charming. That is the way it should be in all of the espionage games ever.
No, charming.
Not surprising.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Okay, I'm with you so far.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: Okay, so far. Great. Then you have to rank like. Okay, so what if there's, like, two people that are surprised? Three people, how does that all work? So if you're in a group, which this is not uncommon, if you're in a group, the lowest value of the group is the number.
Right? Okay, so you have the NPC Surprise value and maybe the group. And oh, Harrigan's character has the lowest. So we're going to go with them because they're the most likely. You know, if they could pass, then the whole group can pass is kind of the mentality.
Then you determine the difference between Those surprise values.
0 to 25, neither is surprised.
26 to 50 group with the lower value is surprised.
51 or greater group of the low of lower value is completely surprised.
So you could be surprised or completely surprised.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: Harrigan, it sounds like you cannot be surprised if you have a higher value.
[00:28:17] Speaker A: Correct. Correct.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Interesting.
[00:28:20] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: Not even a slim chance. Like, you just can't. No, there's no role here. There's the two values and there's comparison on a small table.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: Exactly. And those values are derived from all
[00:28:32] Speaker B: those other primary, secondary, and tertiary traits
[00:28:36] Speaker A: that all go into deception and evasion.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: If you're not evading anything, you're harder to surprise.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: All right, take. Keep going. So let's say nobody's surprised.
Keep going.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: Yes. Well, it goes even further because if you are completely surprised. So there's optional rules. And the optional rules specifically in this sequence of events can be a sneak attack, can be an optional rule, and called shots can be an optional rule in this game.
If you don't play with either one of them, then they don't come into play.
[00:29:15] Speaker B: You could use called shots even if you're not don't have surprise. Can't you.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: I think it's.
[00:29:21] Speaker B: I mean, I know it's an optional rule, but.
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Well, yes, you can use a called shot if you are not surprised. But in this case, we're talking about surprise still.
[00:29:29] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:29:30] Speaker A: Because if you are if surprised or completely surprised, okay, you're the victim. You cannot use the optional called shot rule. Which makes sense, like, dude, you're not making a called shot if you're surprised, period. Right. So it just makes that stipulation. Hey, Harrigan, you can't do that.
[00:29:50] Speaker B: It's just a general theme, like, really cool in terms of emulation, but simulation. But man, it's, you know, it just slows everything down. But it's. It's true. If you're surprised, it's harder to.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: To do that. Yeah. And then the other one is, if you are completely surprised, the attacker can employ the optional attack rule or optional sneak attack rule. Sorry, optional sneak attack rule. Must be short range or less.
So there's all of these things that are very conditional, which is not wholly uncommon. But it's just like one thing. Oh, I know. By the way, this one thing. And. Oh, by the way, this one thing. You can imagine running this going, oh, completely surprised. I'm gonna do sneak attack. Oh, no, you can't. Because you are completely surprised. Though it doesn't say you can't if you are just surprised.
So there's two conditions, right?
Everybody good? Are you good, Harrigan? I guess this is the question.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: What? Pardon?
[00:30:55] Speaker A: That wasn't even a sound effect, ladies and gentlemen. That was actually arrogant.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: Bravo here.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: Then we go into projectile combat.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: Yeah, we do.
[00:31:09] Speaker A: Yes.
So unless you are completely surprised point blank or short range, then you can do the sneak attack. So if you're using that optional rule, go sneak attack the after three.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: After three. After three weeks at the Sean, Very little of this surprises me, but go on.
[00:31:27] Speaker A: I know, I know.
Shouldn't.
We could still kind of laugh about it.
And then, of course, the ambusher gets
[00:31:37] Speaker B: a free shot, which takes us down that. That, like, snaking trail of how and how much emphasis this game puts on the whole who gets the first shot.
Because there's, like, a lot on that, right?
[00:31:52] Speaker A: Yes, because it goes into determining first
[00:31:57] Speaker B: shot, first shot determination.
Let's see, at least a page and
[00:32:02] Speaker A: a half, I think. Hold on to your belts. Yeah, Agents.
So the first shot like this, like, we're like, Sean, just get to initiative. That's what we're talking about, folks.
This is how initiative works.
Because we just covered right now. Surprise.
That's how far we're into it. So moving on. Determining the first shot and firing order of other characters. And the way it is done is using the offense value of each character involved and adding or subtracting modifiers from the first shot determination chart.
Okay, offense. And everybody has a base offense value.
And I thought I wrote that down somewhere, but I can't remember what it is. It's a derived.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: Yeah, it's one of the secondary traits.
[00:32:55] Speaker A: Secondary traits, Yep.
[00:32:56] Speaker B: I. Sean, I. I don't think we need to get into the ditch on every single one of those. You know, it's. It's going to take us too long if we're gonna just go back and describe all the trees.
[00:33:04] Speaker A: I'm not going to go into all the charts, but just to give you an idea overview of what those charts look like and when. So think it's important to kind of go, oh, okay, so offensive value, Right.
I got the higher offense. I go first.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: The character has one. Each character has one.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Yes, yes, each one has one. But modifiers. So here's where the modifiers come in. We're not going to go through each one, but they are broken down by table.
So the first one is drawing. There are 13 modifiers depending on where you're drawing the weapon from.
Did you know that, Eric?
[00:33:37] Speaker B: This is one of my. This is one of my. Are you kidding? This is one of my favorite parts of the game.
Drawing from the waistband in the back. Back is different from drawing cross hip. There's a neck band you can. You can draw from.
My very favorite is drawing from the pants pocket. Opposite side, front. I can't even imagine trying to do that.
You're right handed. You're drawing from a pistol in your left front pocket. Minus 14, by the way, to your offensive factor.
[00:34:07] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:07] Speaker B: It's a great table, man.
[00:34:08] Speaker A: It's a great table. Oh, my God.
And it is so much like. Okay, as the administrator, the GM in this case. Okay, so where is your weapon? You got to know where the weapon is on your character.
It's true to my ankle. Remember the ankle. The ankle holster, Right.
What's the. Is there a modifier for the ankle holster?
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Of course it's minus 16.
[00:34:30] Speaker A: There you go.
The next one would be shooter's movement. And there's six different mods or modification modifiers on the shooter's movement. So we went over this last episode, which was Walking, Crawling, Running, and of course, Harrigan's favorite, Waiting.
[00:34:50] Speaker B: Love waiting.
[00:34:51] Speaker A: Waiting with the D, folks, not waiting as in time.
[00:34:54] Speaker B: Yes, yes, Wade.
Waiting indeed. You know, just glancing at this, it's one of those things where I'm looking at like a combination of some charts here of the all the stuff you're about to get into.
There's very few ways to make your role higher. They're almost all negative modifiers.
Like, there's no stationary gives you a bonus there. It's a zero in most cases. But don't let me interrupt your flow here.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree. I think everything, like when you create your character, everything is like the most usual and then everything's downhill from there, folks.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: It is, it is.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: So the next one is surprise factor, which is only the first phase.
So in the surprise factor, it depends on what that looks like. And then there's a couple modifiers there. Then we go into weapon speed.
There are six modifiers there from very slow to very fast, which means that you can get anywhere from a minus 10. But to contradict Tarek and what he just said, you can actually get a plus 10 depending on the weapon speed. The next thing is wounds.
So if you have been injured, that plays a role within who gets to first to shoot first. Remember folks, we are right now going through who gets to shoot first, second, third, fourth. Right. This is determining initiative.
So wounds. There's three. Three things. Like if you're wounded, then if your life level is over half. Right. Life level is hit points in this game.
And if you are still above half, there's a modifier. If your life level is a half or under, there is a modifier. And those are two drastically ones, big ones, I think. Like if you're half or under your -20, where if you're half over half, I think it's like a minus five. It's a pretty big difference. Don't quote me on that, but.
And then we go into aiming. So aiming plays a role. This, this eventually gives you your net speed.
So a 2 normal is. Is 0 for aiming and shooting is faster. Yes.
[00:37:08] Speaker B: Which is kind of cool because that's an actual technique that they. That they do train. Like various combat specialists on is that snapshot where you. You've drawn and you don't even have time to bring the gun up to your eyes to look down the sights. You're shooting from the hip. Literally.
It's a. It's a skill that they train and it's represented here, which is cool.
[00:37:28] Speaker A: So my notes are a little wonky, but what has just came out of all of that, once you get through all of those tables, that is your net speed.
So the character with the highest net speed. Hey. Goes first, then the next, then the next, until the end of the first phase.
If any modifiers change, then the net speed needs to be recalculated. A person gets wounded, you stop moving, etc. So every change in that all has to be recalculated.
[00:38:02] Speaker B: You don't hip shoot anymore. Like there's all kinds of. Yeah, yeah. Go from. From a walk to a run. Like all that.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: Correct. Yep. So weapon speed, wounds, movement will be the only things that modify order of firing.
So at the end of five phases.
Five, as a Harrigan mentioned earlier, or at the end of any phase in which no character fired, the turn is over.
[00:38:30] Speaker B: Oh, I forgot about that.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: The turn is over. If nobody fires, I don't fire, then the turn's over. Even though you might have the Mexican standoff, nobody's fired.
Then I think the surprise goes.
Yeah. When somebody wants to shoot, all hit determination modifiers revert back to the base figures.
So if there is a hit determination, those all change.
Now, I just have a note about automatic weapons briefly. In all this automatic weapons, there is a rate characteristic of each weapon.
This is interesting. Do you get. Did you get into this, Harrigan? Did you read this over. Do you want to explain it a little bit?
[00:39:18] Speaker B: Oh, God, no. This is. This is your show, man.
My. My take. My take would simply be you're modeling every. You fire every bullet like you're modeling them all. But I think you probably have more detail about how it actually works.
[00:39:32] Speaker A: So the way it works is, say, for example, you have an automatic weapon that shoots. We'll do an odd number because that's an interesting one. Because if it's even, it's, you know, one, and then this one and this one. But the first one is if you're, say, for example, in book there's a.45 caliber M3 that has a rate of five.
You do half the. Half the shots occur at the agent's position in order. In other words, when it's your initiative, half of your shots are done first and then the remainder occur after everyone else has fired in the phase.
[00:40:07] Speaker B: I remember reading that now and I blocked it out. This is. This is information I will immediately shed from my brain when we're done covering this game. So, you know, so does your grease gun. Does your M3 really say rate of fire 5? They changed it from my version because mine is 4.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: I think. So they made a tweak. I think. I think they did. I could be wrong. It was right out of the example that they used. But say if you have a rate of Fire 3, you would obviously on your turn, shoot once.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:36] Speaker A: And then the second time you would shoot once again. Like until nobody goes and then you go again.
[00:40:42] Speaker B: So it's like in each, like the burst of. Of submachine gun fire is interleaved with other actions happening.
[00:40:50] Speaker A: It is. Which is so weird.
[00:40:52] Speaker B: Bananas really.
[00:40:53] Speaker A: Give me a break.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: It's banana.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:56] Speaker B: Bam, bam. I run over to the side. Bam, bam, bam. And then I do the.
It's back and forth. Yeah, it's pretty. It's pretty crazy.
[00:41:05] Speaker A: And then we go into, you know. Oh, go ahead.
[00:41:07] Speaker B: You know, one thing. One thing I'm gonna do to support.
Because what we're, you know, people need to appreciate what we're trying to plow through here. I think I may post some of these charts on. On my sub stack on the Hearth at some point so people can see the insane number of mod of categories that weapons are rated in. And some of the are think of primary and secondary traits. The weapons have kind of the same thing. Like there's a primary, I think it's primary weapon value is that right? And that number is an amalgam. Is a calculation based on all kinds of other numbers, including firepower and power and all kinds of stuff. Anyway, I digress, you're talking about automatic fire. But these tables are something else, man.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: They are.
And then we go into movement.
During projectile combat, any character may move at any rate of speed, pending other restrictions. And the other restrictions include first shot determination and hit determination sections. There's two tables.
So those play a role within your movement, right? So if you've been hit, it impacts your movement.
It occurs after combat. So upon completion of the session, the phase five, then it goes into this broken down by phase.
So it happens after shooting.
The person shoots if they miss. If a person moves 15ft, person shoots. So it's, it's really, it's interesting because it's like, okay, if I have a movement of. Here's the example. I have a movement of 75ft.
After I shoot, I tell her I'm. Harrigan says I'm going to move. What's your movement? Harrigan? He says 75ft.
[00:42:55] Speaker B: 75ft? Sean?
[00:42:56] Speaker A: Yeah, he was 75ft. I said, okay, Oregon, I'm gonna, my, my NPC is going to shoot at you.
And if he misses, you move 15ft.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Again, it's kind of like pulsed or phased or sequenced, right? It is within the round.
[00:43:14] Speaker A: Yes. If I miss, then I go, okay, you can continue.
I'm gonna go again. I shoot, I miss. Now you're, you move 30ft. Congratulations.
Until any time I hit you, it becomes like. I think it seizes your movement.
[00:43:31] Speaker B: So did you play any of the hero games in the 80s? Champions, you know, Danger International Justice Incorporated.
[00:43:39] Speaker A: I played Hero Champions once at Gen Con. It was like my first ever. Never knew anything about the game and there were those kinds of phases, things I think going on.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's, it's probably the best treatment from the 80s of this type of phased combat where you're having to do this interleaving of minute actions, right. Whether it's I aim and then I get to do something. But Champions had a pretty sophisticated way to do it. In fact, I love the way it did it, but it's just kind of slow.
Especially in a modern age when you know, people want the action. I think moving a little bit faster.
Champions is. Can. Can bog down a bit. But interesting. I think there's just a. This is of the time, right? These look up tables, we're talking about these letter codes where you have to it doesn't say what happens. It goes to K. And then you have to find out, what the hell does K mean? What table is that on?
Similarly, I think these. These heavily sequenced combat rounds are just sort of. Of the time.
[00:44:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
So that's done.
Now we go into hit determination.
So you roll percentile versus the base chance, which is the character's offense.
And that's the average of coordination. And, you know, the average of coordination, courage, plus the projectile, weapon value, or the pwv.
[00:44:57] Speaker B: That's the pwv.
[00:44:58] Speaker A: Pwv.
And then plus or minus range of target, as well as other modifiers, right. That gives you your base chance. You roll a percentile against your base chance.
Right. If it's less than the percentile, so it's a percentile roll under, you hit.
Then if you hit, you consult the general injury determination table.
If it's equal to. Then the weapon is. The weapon is hit.
[00:45:26] Speaker B: That is my favorite part of this whole setup.
[00:45:28] Speaker A: Cool. I like that.
[00:45:29] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:45:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:45:30] Speaker B: So if you have a 59 in the end and you hit the 59, you shoot the. You shoot the weapon out of the guy's hands. Yes, I love that.
[00:45:38] Speaker A: If there is no weapon, then what happens, Harrigan?
[00:45:42] Speaker B: You hit. You hit their clothing.
I love that too. I mean, you get like. You got a boat hole in your tuxedo, right? Like, that's. That's cool.
You know, they. They. You know, they. These rules are terrible, Sean. They're terrible.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: But.
[00:45:58] Speaker B: But then they come up with these, like, gemstones where it's like, you know, you're shoveling away. It's like, oh, look at this. Right? This is sweet.
[00:46:05] Speaker A: If it is greater than the. If it's. The percentile is above that, then you miss. Okay, Regardless. Regardless of the modifiers, and after everything, you still have a minimum 5% chance of shooting something and hitting it. And then you have a maximum of a 95% chance.
It doesn't go above that.
If you roll a 99 or 100 on a percentile, you have a misfire or a jam.
Pretty straightforward. So then after all that's done, you figure out the hit determination section, which is. There are five charts, five tables. One is the movement of shooter, the movement of target, the wounds, miscellaneous and automatic weapons.
And that all comes together with, like, hit determination, the hit weapons chart. So if you, like Harrigan and I mentioned, if you have a target, a number of 59, and you rolled it 59, you hit the weapon.
There is a. Hey, I hit the weapon. Chart what happens to the weapon. And you roll a percentile. And then on that chart it's broken down by letters and you have to cross reference those letters on what the result is.
And those letters are A through F but are a combination of them. So it's A, B and C. A, B&D. AD, A, E& F.
Let me give
[00:47:33] Speaker B: you some examples, please.
A, the weapon is damaged beyond normal. Normal usage gun will not fire. B, the weapon is dropped or shot loose from the bear's grasp. C, deflection of projectile is into weapon bearer. Consult a general or injury determination chart. And on and on.
There's my favorite. Projectile is lodged in weapon does not affect proper use. That's just bizarre.
[00:48:01] Speaker A: I would find that as a novelty I have a gun with a bowed in it and it works like a champ.
[00:48:09] Speaker B: I mean these things are steel and polymer bullets don't lodge in them.
It's kind of funny.
[00:48:18] Speaker A: Continuing on then, general injury determination. So if you've been injured and there's been damage that has been suffered, you consult a hit location table, which is fantastic. Which is also my, like our, our bookmarks that we've had created. I did not copy it right out of Top Secret. But there's a hit location table.
[00:48:37] Speaker B: Yep. All the way from head slash neck through right arm, right hand, left arm, left hand, all the way down to left foot.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: If a hit would be the chest and your chest is behind cover, it would be considered a miss, which makes sense, I think. Or hits the wall, right? Boom.
[00:48:56] Speaker B: I have always liked hit location rules where they often the more modern games will help. Will have a little silhouette that show what's exposed. If someone has part cover versus full cover versus whatever. And if it's a randomized hit chart, you have to roll like, like an exposed part. Otherwise it just hits the COVID Which is pretty cool.
[00:49:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
Okay. Everything's done. I shot, I've moved my phases.
Now we roll damage, which is interesting because it's not based on a weapon type.
[00:49:30] Speaker B: If you look, we talk about this I think briefly previously. If you look into the optional rules around caliber and that kind of thing, there's some modifiers, but overall it does not matter if you get shot with a.22 or a 50 caliber round from a Barrett, you know, doesn't matter.
[00:49:47] Speaker A: Right.
So you have to find out the type of damage first.
Is it abrasion or to. All the way from abrasion nicked me to internal damage.
[00:49:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:00] Speaker A: And then the seriousness. And you roll twice on the same. Well, yeah, you roll Twice on the same chart. So the first rule is to determine the type. The second rule is to determine the seriousness.
[00:50:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Pair of D10 rolls, right? Right.
[00:50:15] Speaker A: Yes. Two D10. And then you subtract that from your life level, which are your hit points.
And then I think we even. Last episode. The most you would have in this game is typically 20, because it's a combination of two skills divided by 10 and. Or. And those skills can be a max of 100 each.
And then of course, if that hits you at zero, you are dead.
[00:50:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we did. We determined, did we not? On average, you'd have 10 or 11 health points. Or 10, 10 and 12 would be pretty average. Yes. And this chart for serious damage. So there's a way to. I forget that way that works. Sean. There's a way to determine. Oh, it's a. It's a completely random.
[00:50:54] Speaker A: Random number.
[00:50:55] Speaker B: D10 roll 1 through 5 is light. 6 through 10 is serious. And light does 1 through 11, and Sirius does 2 through 12.
[00:51:04] Speaker A: That's why you're rolling two D10. One. The first 10. Is this the second 10? Is that. Yes.
[00:51:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
Wow. How extraneous.
Wow.
[00:51:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:15] Speaker B: Oh, boy.
[00:51:16] Speaker A: That's. And there you go. And that's combat, folks. So if you've survived all of that.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: Well, hold up. Time out. No, Pat, no. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
That is not auto combat.
[00:51:28] Speaker A: Oh, oh. It's projectile combat. I'm sorry.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: At the very beginning of this segment, you talked about how there were like multiple types. And here's. Here's a curiosity because the game, indeed the combat section does begin with the sequence of play that Sean talked about. Like, is it possession combat? Is it melee combat? Is it projectile? And then they immediately go into projectile combat first, which is not the first thing you check. And it's gory detail. And I think before. Sean, if we're all okay, if you're okay to pivot here a little bit, before the show, you and I agreed and understood we'll never get through all sections of this combat. So we're not going to plow through the possession combat and the hand to hand combat in the same detailed fashion. No, gentle listeners, if you're curious, go and procure yourself this game and you have at it. You will. You will find what we've described. And so much more briefly, very briefly, the.
The hand to hand combat is even more convoluted than the fire combat is. And the projectile combat is like significantly more. And I'll just. I'll just Blow through some table table names. Here you have a non trained striking combat table. You have a non trained holds combat table. A wrestling takedown combat table.
A wrestling takedown injury determination table. A wrestling hold down combat table. A wrestling hold down injury determination paragraph. Wrestling holds and throws. Boxer or sword play combat judo throws. Judo holds. Martial arts striking. Martial arts striking injuries. It goes on for pages and is like just say no. This is what I would say. Like just, just say no to all of this.
Oh, it goes on and on, Sean.
[00:53:15] Speaker A: Six pages.
[00:53:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's other stuff that gets to as well. It gets into, you know, how you do grenades and underwater combat. And I love this header. Arousing human or animal guards.
What it means is alerting them, you know, not arousing them.
[00:53:38] Speaker A: I mean they are technically aroused but rousing, not arousing.
[00:53:43] Speaker B: It says arousing.
[00:53:45] Speaker A: I know it says arousing, but it was a game at the time.
[00:53:49] Speaker B: Yes, yes, but like I said, we could, we could spend five more shows just on this section and we're not going to do that. I would love to briefly, if I may run down a few of the observations I made at a higher level about some of this stuff.
[00:54:02] Speaker A: Please do.
[00:54:03] Speaker B: What are we now, five, six episodes into the show? Six.
[00:54:06] Speaker A: This is episode six, sir.
[00:54:08] Speaker B: This is number six. It will be no surprise to anybody who's listened to, to prior episodes. And I'm, I'm a fan of the firearms right. In these, in these games. So I think there's some amusing firearm stuff that I came across. One being different size shot is modeled for shotguns for each gauge. So if you got 10 gauge, 12 gauge, 20 gauge bird shot versus buckshot, it actually goes by the number of the shot. It's pretty funny. It's, it's damn funny. I have a, I, you know, we've talked about how you're going to get your education in firearms on this show, Sean.
So I have a question for you. Oh God. Page 6, page 16 has a table of random enemy weaponry and it includes a 22 double action self load handgun. Okay, what does double action mean, Sean? It's quiz for you.
[00:55:01] Speaker A: Double action. So you have to cock it and then shoot it, right?
[00:55:05] Speaker B: That's single action. You're on the right trail. But double action is you could, you can, you can simply pull the trigger.
So in other words, the first part of, the first part of the trigger pull sets the hammer.
[00:55:15] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:55:15] Speaker B: And then when the trigger breaks, the gun fires.
[00:55:19] Speaker A: So this is a, I'm sorry, is this a rifle Or a pistol.
[00:55:22] Speaker B: This is the handgun.22 double action self load handgun. Why they called it that, I have no idea.
[00:55:28] Speaker A: So that is like a, like a lever, lever load cock, shoot.
[00:55:36] Speaker B: It's a handgun.
[00:55:37] Speaker A: But that's my point. It's a, that's why I asked. Like a rifle. So it would be like.
[00:55:42] Speaker B: No, so, so double action in this sense, you know, you. There are actually, actually double action automatics as well. I don't want to take too much time on this man. So picture, picture a government model 1911 Colt.45 handgun. Like a classic, the, you know, M2GI M2 nomenclature.
[00:56:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:56:00] Speaker B: So picture that. That is a single action semi automatic pistol.
[00:56:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:56:05] Speaker B: What happens is if you've got a round in the chamber of that gun and the hammer's down, it won't fire. You pull the trigger, nothing happens. You have to thumb the hammer back. Or if you have no round in the chamber, you can pull the slide back, which does two things. It brings the bullet up, but it also sets the hammer back. And the next time you fire, the slide moves, it ejects the shell, brings the round up and it sets the hammer back. So the double action piece is all about the trigger pull.
So what I think they're describing is like a.22 revolver, but it's not a six gun. With a six gun, like an old old west gun, you have to pull the hammer back and pull the trigger. Pull the hammer back and pull the trigger. Double action, you just pull that trigger six times and in fact, I gotta look this up. Remember my dad used to tell me they used to have contests in the 1920s and 30s about who could fire six bullets or who could fire bullets fastest. And the guy who would win this contest all the time. I need to look this guy up. Was not fanning the. Fanning it. No, he was using a double action revolver because it was faster than the action of automatics at the time. So the people who are using 1911s and you know, Browning High Powers or P38s or whatever, the action of the slide moving is actually slower anyway. This is way more than I intended to go to on this though. I wanted to make sure you learned something. Every time we, every time we did this, you know, we, we talk. I'll skip this next piece. We've talked, we've talked already about how the guns model, like accuracy, concealment, firepower, reliability, just all that kind of stuff. Right. There's, there's so, so many different kinds of columns and categories.
Not too many, but there's A couple of broken rules, I think. And I wanted you to check your edition because you have the second edition, whereas I have the second printing of the first edition Encumbrance.
The what I've got is if you carry anything more than 10 pounds of gear, 10 pounds, you are encumbered and that halves your movement and it includes your clothing as well.
So maybe, maybe while we're talking here, you can cruise through and see if, if the encumbrance rules change because it seems like, you know, £11 doesn't seem terribly encumbered.
And then while Sean flips, I've got one more here that I, I, this is something I absolutely love. So on page 11 you might, you might remember this, Sean, I saw that, I saw you had a note on this at one point as well, but I think you breezed past it. There is a table for job site transport.
So this is all about how do the operatives get to the job.
And it's not, I shouldn't say it's a table, it's more of a paragraph, I think that describes it. But it is all about the arriving at the mission by helicopter ladder, by swimming from a nearby boat, or my very favorite, oh no, I should say. Or by parachuting into a region. Those are all pretty cool. Here's my favorite. The agents may arrive by walking from a parked vehicle.
I love that.
In other words, you get dropped off by like mom takes you down to the pool, forces you to get out. Yeah, it's pretty good stuff.
Interestingly, this game has a, an early die of fate mechanism where you roll a single die just to see if there's a, if there's a pro or a negative for the players, I think it's called random answers or something like that. Where is it here? Yep. If no one really knows how to answer a yes no question and the admin isn't prepared to make one up roll a ten sided die. One to five means yes, six to ten means no. Pretty cool. I need to dig into the AD and DMG at some point because I know that Gygax also has a similar passage in there. And frankly that type of thinking has permeated parts of the OSR these days and it's really kind of cool to see it here.
Have you had any luck yet on your search for the encumbrance rules?
[00:59:48] Speaker A: Close.
[00:59:49] Speaker B: Are you close? Yeah.
[00:59:50] Speaker A: Special equipment encumbrance. Yes, I have it here. It was very early, like not comment. So 10 pounds it is the same.
[01:00:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that's bananas.
[01:00:02] Speaker A: If he or she is carrying not more than 10 pounds of equipment, including clothing, by the way. Weapons, loot. For movement purposes, a character is said to be.
For movement purposes, the characters is encumbered when he or she is carrying more than ten pounds, but less ten pounds, but less than one half the total weight that character is allowed to carry.
Oh. If that's the case, then a character is said to be heavily encumbered.
[01:00:33] Speaker B: All right, enough about encumbrance. Yeah, I got two last little things and then we can either turn to our checklist to see if this game checks some boxes or if you have something different. So the last two tables I want to talk about, which I think are really amusing and really cool. There's a police cuffing table.
So if you get taken in by the authorities, you might be gagged, your wrist might be cuffed, your wrists and ankles might be cuffed, and it just goes on from there.
And then maybe one of the coolest tables in the book or funniest tables in the book. Page 51, full page execution table.
Roll a percentile dice to determine the attempted execution method. The agent's willpower must exceed the survival value or the agent dies.
And this involves.
I mean, some of them are horrible, like air embolism type stuff. Air injected into veins, bloodletting, decapitation, drawing and quartering, drowning, electrocution, firing squad, gassing, hanging, impaling, incineration, pendulum blade, it goes on.
[01:01:32] Speaker A: I think they.
[01:01:32] Speaker B: Did you not see this table?
[01:01:34] Speaker A: I think they've removed it.
[01:01:34] Speaker B: Did they remove it?
[01:01:35] Speaker A: I think they did. I don't. They were probably like, dude, that's a.
Ixnay on the table. A. You might want to get that out.
[01:01:43] Speaker B: So you don't have agents that can die from a tarantula bite or being thrown to animals or ultrasonic bombardment. You don't have any of those.
[01:01:49] Speaker A: Oh, I do have the execution table on mine. It's 47. I'm sorry. And does include tarantula bite, throat slit,
[01:02:00] Speaker B: run over with land vehicle thrown to animals.
[01:02:04] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. It tells me the time and the survival value. Yes, yes, Very good, very good.
[01:02:11] Speaker B: Now, having said all that, the very last page of the PDF that I have, I don't. I can't tell if it's the last page of the book or if it was like an additional piece of paper in the box.
It's. Is it like the sequence of play, the quick start kind of thing, or. Not quick start, but the.
It's a breakdown of everything Sean just talked about in terms of weapon speed, drawing, surprise factor. Shooter's movement. It's a quick reference sheet. It's kind of cool in 19, 1980 to see this type of Mork Borg style or the end papers have all the rules on them. Right. This is a one pager. Now this doesn't have any of the extra charts that you have to reference, but it does have the key components that you go through. It's kind of neat.
[01:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah, mine's. Mine starts after page 59, which is perforated. And then the next one and then the next one. So there's one two perforated pages back to back that cover some of the charts that we walked you through. And then there's another one that's ripped out already, which is probably the character dossier in my book. And then there's the back inside cover.
That's nothing, it's advertising. And then the back. It's funny, the back inside cover is like other fine TSR products. And then on the back cover is actually like sequence of play, hit determination chart, first shot determination. So it's like they picked up the sequence on the back cover but not on the inside cover. Like. No, no, the inside cover's gotta. We gotta promote our stuff.
So.
[01:03:42] Speaker B: Interesting. Yeah, they definitely added to it for sure.
[01:03:47] Speaker A: All right, so we've gone over quite a bit of the information around Top Secret. We've gone into character generation. We've the second episode of a Deep Dive. We went over General overview a couple episodes ago. And even prior in like episode one, Harrigan had a list of things that he would want to see in espionage games. Kind of a checkbox of criteria mechanics. Yes.
[01:04:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:04:14] Speaker A: So Harrigan, I will turn it over to you to let me know if Top Secret does indeed hit some of those for you.
[01:04:22] Speaker B: Well, you're gonna help me.
There's not gonna be a one man show here, but. But yeah, if folks remember, I think it was episode two. When we get into this, Sean, I wanted to see competent spies.
Are these competent spies?
What do you think?
[01:04:38] Speaker A: I, I'm. I don't know.
I mean, they do have fame and fortune points which help
[01:04:48] Speaker B: this game. You know what, I'm sorry for the aside. This game is so hard to get the gist of at a glance and understand just why Sean just said that.
He doesn't know. It's so hard, it's so opaque as to eyeballing what the odds are, how it just how it looks like it fits together.
[01:05:06] Speaker A: But I will say this on that comment is like, you think about it like, oh, we're gonna try to mimic James Bondish. Right. And so it even says that like, hey, we're gonna. We wanna. This type of style or play or tone, you know, things. And it's gonna. Some inspirational references early on in the book.
But I don't know, it's almost like fighting within itself to say, well we really want it to be realistic.
But everybody knows James Bond isn't realistic.
[01:05:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. My answer here was it can be, I think.
Right.
[01:05:43] Speaker A: You don't know.
[01:05:44] Speaker B: You're right. It has, it has the optional rules of fame and fortune which kind of go a long way towards extending the life of the agent kind of thing. And it does. When you're rolling your. Remember when you're rolling your primary traits or characteristics or whatever the hell they're called in this game, when you're rolling those, it has that like those buffering numbers that protect you against really low rolls. So if you roll a 10, you add 25 to it, you get a 35 instead of a. Instead of a 10. There's some, there's some thought towards that for sure. And I would also say this is another part that's hard for me to eyeball.
I don't think this is modeling high octane action at all.
[01:06:17] Speaker A: No.
[01:06:17] Speaker B: I think if you run into three dudes with guns, you are in a world of hurt. Unless you are getting to cover, you outnumber them somehow.
Like that's a bad. Bad news is, you know, just so it's pretty, pretty gritty really when you get right down to it. So the spies are maybe a little less competent than some of the more cinematic games.
All right, how does this game deal with tradecraft? Do you like the way it does tradecraft?
Sure, I think it does. It has those areas of knowledge and that sort of thing and it has many blowout tables for specific things that involve tradecraft. How about social, how does it do on the social skill side of things for interrogation, persuasion, deception, seduction?
[01:06:55] Speaker A: I don't know. Maybe. I don't know.
[01:06:58] Speaker B: It's not, it's not covered.
[01:06:59] Speaker A: I don't think so. Oh, it isn't at all.
[01:07:01] Speaker B: I don't think so. Not really. There may be there beyond being in an area of knowledge or have or rolling charm. But that's not that. Those are not rules, that's just making a check. There's no sections that get deeply into that.
[01:07:15] Speaker A: I remember Contact, Force, Fool, Fascinate, Dazzle, Scare, Impress, con, lure, and then.
[01:07:23] Speaker B: And this is for a contact you're making?
[01:07:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Contacts are non player characters that an agent communicates with. For an agent to get unusual information from a contact, the two must meet in a non combat situation. Harrigan, just so you know, like if they're meeting in a combat situation.
Okay, yeah.
[01:07:40] Speaker B: So let, let me. I stand corrected. Let me, let me amend.
It has rules. I just don't like them.
But it does have rules. You're right, it does.
[01:07:50] Speaker A: And has a huge table.
Remember it has the agent's trait value and then the contact's trait value and you cross reference it to get a letter code.
[01:08:00] Speaker B: Give me the page number for that. I want to make sure that my page 14.
[01:08:04] Speaker A: And then based on the letter code you have the contact reaction.
We've talked about briefly in the last episode where it was like the person going through the kitchen trying to convince the chef to help them and then.
[01:08:16] Speaker B: Yep. Oh yeah, you're right. Fooling, bribing. I. I stand 100 corrected. It has all that.
[01:08:22] Speaker A: It does, but it's also very wonky.
[01:08:24] Speaker B: More than you want.
Yeah. How does it do with infiltration and like security system defeating and that kind of thing?
[01:08:33] Speaker A: You know, there's.
[01:08:34] Speaker B: He's giving me the so. So hand.
[01:08:36] Speaker A: There's this. There's this table. There's that table. Then you roll on that table.
Yeah, a little bit.
[01:08:44] Speaker B: All right. I talked a little bit about wanting to see multi part challenges in these games so that you can have a team attack, a mission or a heist and have. I'm doing the hacking, I'm doing the. I'll work the door guy and I'll be in the kitchen trying to open the doors behind us. I don't think it has those sorts of. And that's a more modern concept. Right. These multi part challenges where many people can participate. How does it do with gadgets and vehicles?
[01:09:12] Speaker A: I did not get into the chase rolls or vehicles.
No, I don't remember. But there is a vehicle chart in here. I'm pretty sure that gets kind of interesting. If I'm not mistaken, I forgot about the unconscious chart. But anyways.
Oh, there's lockpick sets, forced entry. There's a couple more passages on that.
[01:09:38] Speaker B: It's easy to get lost in this game. There's charts upon charts. So I, Yeah, I remember from a prior promo we first read this a few weeks ago. Now there's not chase rules per se.
[01:09:49] Speaker A: Correct.
[01:09:49] Speaker B: But there are, there are tables that have like what kind of obstacles might be in your path. There's that table and there's. There are like bullets versus vehicles, explosions versus vehicles. There's. There are those Sorts of things. So it does. It does. Okay. I always wanted to see. I always want to see reputation recognition or fame. It's got bat and spades.
[01:10:09] Speaker A: The.
[01:10:09] Speaker B: Here's what I don't know the answer to the easy bake. Enemies. Remember, I want to see enemies that fit on a note card or that you can create quickly. How does it do with that?
[01:10:21] Speaker A: I don't remember if there is an abbreviated way to make an npc.
[01:10:28] Speaker B: Honestly, I don't know that it even actually gets into how you would do it. But I think it does provide some samples, doesn't it? Guards 1 Guard. Yeah, it, it does does. Yeah it does.
So I'll tell you what. I think any GM worth their salt could take what they, they give you and you could. You could easily cobble together a relatively quick way to make enemies with some percentages and that kind of thing.
[01:10:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's very much a enemy. What weapon do they have?
[01:10:57] Speaker B: Right, right. That's right.
[01:10:58] Speaker A: And then it's all very abbreviated.
And then I think. Yeah, then it goes from there.
[01:11:04] Speaker B: No, I, I might be changing my mind because when you get into the whole what you covered today, that surprise and the order in which you act, you need some detailed information from the foes to make that all click and, and, and turn like a clock. Right.
All right, I'm going to plow through the rest here. Sean, does it have metacurrency?
Yes, it has those famine and fortune points. Does. Is there any discussion over failing forward and sort of the, you know, the more advanced concepts of what do you, what do you do in this type of heist or caper or mission style game when people have failed the roles and what they need are behind the closed doors or the locked doors.
It's 1980. There's no recognition that this is a problem. So it does not talk about that. That I was looking for fun and fun fire fun firearms, rules that were also dangerous. I think they're dangerous. I don't think they're particularly fun.
Are there consequences other than death that are called out in this game? Like if you lose your life points, what happens to you?
You have to.
[01:12:08] Speaker A: There is recuperation.
Like there is the, you know, you have to go sessions or hours with no action and then you can recuperate. So there is a healing mechanism in here. I know that for sure.
[01:12:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I guess what I would say is I think if you go to the optional roles, at least there's a whole. There's sections on permanent losses to stats and Some of the injuries you can get can be either temporary or permanent and that sort of thing. But it doesn't do much with the whole like you lose key equipment or you lose an ally or, or a relationship is broken again, modern concepts. And I think we'll see some of these in the later games that we review. But in 1980 and 1981, we're not going to see that stuff.
[01:12:50] Speaker A: There's temporary losses chart.
Did you see that?
[01:12:53] Speaker B: Yep.
[01:12:54] Speaker A: So, yeah. And then there's also the permanent losses.
[01:12:56] Speaker B: Temporary losses. Yep. That's what I'm talking about. So you can have wounds that linger and linger. Right. Or are permanent.
[01:13:01] Speaker A: Right.
[01:13:02] Speaker B: So it does, it does do more than death. It just doesn't go beyond physical injury, I guess is what I would say. Got it.
Yeah.
I asked for solid hand to hand rules and this game, like it's got God damn dump trucks full of hand to hand rules.
[01:13:18] Speaker A: I don't know if it's solid, but
[01:13:19] Speaker B: what I mean, yeah, I don't, I don't think they are solid, but. Oh, there's just so much, there's so much.
Remember one that I actually think is pretty important in the genre is this whole idea of rules for assisting or helping. Especially when you have two agents doing something or you have somebody who's in your earpiece from the van giving you directions. It does not have those.
Just a couple of questions left here. Does it give you good. A good framework for designing an adventure or a mission?
[01:13:48] Speaker A: I mean, good is relative. I mean, I think it does have some tools that allow you. I mean, it has a master chart because you have to base your experience points and what you award.
[01:13:59] Speaker B: This question revolves around that chart which we covered in some detail a couple of weeks ago. I love that chart. So I think, yeah, I mean it's, it's messy and it's kind of. You have to go digging in some cases and some, some of the stuffs in the optional rule section at the back. But I think it does have some, some good tools for that.
I do not think there are MOB or MOOC rules. Right. There's no way to mow people down. But again, it's not modeling that. And my last question, I've added this one. Is it playable? Is this a playable game?
[01:14:28] Speaker A: Sean, we're about to find out.
Oh God, we're gonna find out.
[01:14:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:14:35] Speaker A: It would not be on the top of my list if I were to say, oh, you know what? You know, it's funny because I even talk to people like, you know, we post. I Post on Blue sky for us and under that account and, and you know, if you are following us, check it out on Blue sky. It's go bagpod.com but a lot of people are like, oh yeah, play top secret. Si. Like many people I see there's a few that have played top secret, but I don't. And I think I've even challenged them. Like, oh, you used to play this. Yeah. Tell me what your experience was. Like, I can't remember. Or it wasn't to this point. Like it was probably like the way we played. Percentile rolled. Yeah, you hit man, give me damage. Booyah. You know.
[01:15:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it, it really goes back to I think our first episode covering this game at the end of it where we agreed it's playable if you, if you pick and choose how you're going to run it and you cut out large chunks of it. But a big part of that is like I don't think you're, you're paying much attention to the, the, the very finicky combat sequencing that we went into today. But if you get rid of that and you get into just a, you know, roll initiative, take your action. When you, when you can make your movement or whatever, it becomes infin.
That's not the game. That is not the game that Merle wrote at all.
But I have a strong suspicion that even more than A.D. when people played this game in the early 80s, they were doing a very heavily house ruled version of it. Like very heavily house ruled.
That's all I've got to say about Top Secret Sean.
[01:16:07] Speaker A: Well, there you have it folks.
Top secret in a nutshell. There's plenty more that we could have talked about and if you're interested in Top Secret, go and try to find a copy if you can, anywhere. I don't. It's very hard to find and I don't know if it's very cheapy. Apparently mine might be worth a thousand bucks on ebay somewhere, as Harrigan was telling me.
[01:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think the stuff is worth some money. Yeah.
[01:16:30] Speaker A: But this has been. Go Bag. Your assignment is over. Debrief, Rearm and we'll see you you in the next operation.
Want more of Sean and Harrigan? You can find Sean at YouTube.com PG Sean where he streams every Saturday at 8am Central Time. You can find more of Harrigan's RPG musings at harriganshearth.substack.com Links in the show notes this episode of Go Bag brought to you with help from the following agents. Aspect sets and directors Aaron Railia. Who's Carl? Michael Holland, Mr. White, 20 Eric Salzweedle, Joe Swick, Laramie Wall, Larry Hollis, Marco Freilich, Orchest Dorcas, Tony Sugarloaf, Baker Voronak, Ryan West, Andy Hall, Chad Glamen, Crystal Egstad, Curtis Takahashi, Eileen Barnes, Eric Avia, Glenn Seal, Jake at Faded Quill. Gaming Jason Hobbs, Jason Weitzel, Jeff Walken, Jim Ingram, Kelly Ness, Kevin Keneally, Christine McLean, Matthew Catron, Old School DM Phil McClory, Remy Bilodo, Roger French, Salt Heart, Shannon Olsen, Tad Lechman, Tess Trekkie, Victor Wyatt, Wayne Peacock, Yorcus, Rex Nubis, Angela Murray, Brian Kurtz, Brian Rumble, Chris Shore, Hep Talima, Nelson Bispo, Nicholas Abruzzo and Tim Jensen. Thank you for your support. Agents.
